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Chiropractors?
Posted: 04 October 2011 05:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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Helge, Macgyver has been on the forum for quite a while, and it’s been fairly well documented that he’s a practicing M.D. 

I realize that it can by quite annoying to have your statements be thoroughly discredited by Doug and Macgyver, but that doesn’t give you license to be insulting.  Please try to be more civil.

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Posted: 04 October 2011 06:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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While it is true some chiropractors have tried to distance themselves from the concept of the vertebral subluxation, since such an entity does not exist, most still consider this a primary focus of disease and chiropractic treatment. The ACA, for example, states:

Resolved, that the House of Delegates reaffirms the core principle of the subluxation. The ACA will strive to reiterate this principle and further state that the core treatment of chiropractic is manual manipulation/adjustment of the articulations, both spinal and extra-spinal, to reduce subluxations…

This is not something Stephen Barrett has made up. Those chiropractors who wish to turn their methods into truly evidence-based, legitimate science, and who confine themselves to musculoskeletal disorders, are a welcome but very small element of the profession.

Again, from the ACA:

Chiropractors have the training to treat a variety of non-neuromusculoskeletal conditions such as: allergies, asthma, digestive disorders, otitis media (non-suppurative) and other disorders

.

This claim is clearly untrue based on good quality clinical research.

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Posted: 04 October 2011 11:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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Mcgyver

I was thinking about the TV show “McGyver”  J tried to be funny! Sorry!

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Posted: 04 October 2011 11:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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mckenzievmd - 04 October 2011 06:30 PM

This is not something Stephen Barrett has made up. Those chiropractors who wish to turn their methods into truly evidence-based, legitimate science, and who confine themselves to musculoskeletal disorders, are a welcome but very small element of the profession.

Again, from the ACA:

Chiropractors have the training to treat a variety of non-neuromusculoskeletal conditions such as: allergies, asthma, digestive disorders, otitis media (non-suppurative) and other disorders

.

This claim is clearly untrue based on good quality clinical research.

It pains me to read that quote and appreciate what you are saying…

Oh boy, this is something I keep tiptoeing away from since my last post http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/7517/P60/#92573 on the topic… that was May 2010.  At the time my backpain became downright ugly, giving me a taste of “I’ve fallen and can’t get up” followed by four days confined to the living room floor.  Fortunately my situation was a “musculoskeletal disorder” (slightly compressed vertebrae(opps) disk down low) and coupled with a proper chiropractic practitioner, my turn around felt pretty near miraculous. I know, i know, it wasn’t a miracle beyond the body’s miraculous ability to heal itself, given a little help, support and respect. 

Still, for all the grief they get, I’ve had a handful of health saving interactions with them over the decades so find it hard to get too harsh.
While at the same time being disturbed by stuff like the above quote and related facts.

I would hope that the number of chiropractors who confine themselves to musculoskeletal disorders is greater than your assessment. 
As for the rest, I’m grabbing my pitch-fork  cheese

[ Edited: 05 October 2011 08:35 AM by citizenschallenge.pm ]
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Posted: 05 October 2011 12:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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“While it is true some chiropractors have tried to distance themselves from the concept of the vertebral subluxation, since such an entity does not exist, most still consider this a primary focus of disease and chiropractic treatment. The ACA, for example, states:

Resolved, that the House of Delegates reaffirms the core principle of the subluxation. The ACA will strive to reiterate this principle and further state that the core treatment of chiropractic is manual manipulation/adjustment of the articulations, both spinal and extra-spinal, to reduce subluxations…

This is not something Stephen Barrett has made up. Those chiropractors who wish to turn their methods into truly evidence-based, legitimate science, and who confine themselves to musculoskeletal disorders, are a welcome but very small element of the profession.” 

What does chiropractors “subluxation” mean? Read this quote from 1968! :

“Subluxation
The concept of a vertebral subluxation is central to the chiropractic approach to health care. Dorland’s medical dictionary defines subluxation as “an incomplete or partial dislocation.” The chiropractic definition is:
Homewood: The vertebrae are then within their normal range of motion, although not functioning at their optimum [6:14].
Janse: A vertebral subluxation may be interpreted as an ‘off-centering: of a vertebral segment [7:146-149].
Weiant: [A subluxation] is a fixation of the joint within its normal range of movement, usually at the extremity of this range [7].
According to these chiropractic leaders, subluxated vertebrae are characterized by fixation and misalignment, within the normal range of motion. This definition is identical to what specialists in physical medicine and rehabilitation call joint dysfunction”

.

Quoted from the HEW report. From Barretts chirobase. :
http://www.chirobase.org/05RB/HEW/hew03.html

Moore and moore DCs talk only about Joint dysfunctions. Because it is the same.

You wrote: “very small element of the profession”

  Well that is not true! Can you back that up with modern evidence? from this century? I think MOST chiropractors agree with this report: http://chiromt.com/content/18/1/3  So show me your evidence! Saying things that you do, that has been donne before.:

“The Committee on Quackery´s master plan for the demise of chiropractichad been developed by an attorney who originally represented the Iowa Iowa Medical Society, Robert B. Throckmorton. He was concerned about the rapid growth of chiropractic in Iowa and the possible threat it posed to the practices of physicians and surgeons.
Speaking before the regional North Central Medical Conference in Minneapolis on November 11, 1962 , he had addressed what he called a menace to chiropractic, labeled the profession a cult and called for a “positive program of containment.” (3) He urged a national crusade against chiropractic. The outline of his plan included a broad list of proposals designed to destroy chiropractic both from within - through encoring ” chiropractic disunity ” and “stifling chiropractic schools” - and from without , by encouraging ethical complaints against chiropractors ,
prohibiting chiropractic care in hospitals, and opposing the workwers´compensation programs , medicare , and labor union health plans. Further , he cautioned that this should be done covertly:” Any action undertaken by the medical profession should be… behind the Scenes whenever possible.” And he gave one absolute directive for medical doctors :” Never give processional recognition to chiropractors . “(4)  
  After his impassioned specech in Minepolis, Throckmorton was hired as the general counsel for the AMA, and as they say, the rest was history.”  
    Cooperating with the AMA in its antichiroprarctic campaign were some opinionated characters whi claimed to be protecting consumers, but in fact were spreading outrageously distorted information.”

The chiropractors won and AMA had to pay. How much AMA, wanted to been kept as a secret.  


1. American medical Assocation Committee on Quackery, memorandum to the American Medical Assocation Board of Trustees, 4 Januari 1971. Also Plaintiff´s Exhibit 1338 in Wilk v. AMA   
2. ibid”

You wrote:

“Again, from the ACA:

Chiropractors have the training to treat a variety of non-neuromusculoskeletal conditions such as: allergies, asthma, digestive disorders, otitis media (non-suppurative) and other disorders.”

 

This claim is clearly untrue based on good quality clinical research.”

But it seems as it is this DC Wunsch who is saying that . Not ACA? But he is not saying he can cure asthma, that is not the same as treat. But I do not like ADs like that. Did I miss something?(Of course there are no conclusive evidence that DCs can cure those diseases.) This is an evidence report that tell what Chiropractors (and others can cure. But of course moore research need to be donne.) http://chiromt.com/content/18/1/3

Does MDs treat pancreatic cancer ? Yes they do. Do they cure it ? No.  But i do not like ads like that. But maybe they are not illegal. Today.

[ Edited: 05 October 2011 02:27 AM by Helge ]
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Posted: 05 October 2011 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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c.p.

Well, HERE is one DC at least who is on the right track.

Helge,
Your posts are repetitive and largely incoherent, and you clearly aren’t listening to any voice except your own. I see no point in continuing to respond to them.

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Posted: 05 October 2011 03:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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I have read what Homola has written. Homola has written for ACSH.: http://www.acsh.org/search/search2.asp?q=samuel Homola   He has written a book criticizing BJ Palmer. The book is from 1963. BJ died 1961. BJ Palmers
son Dave Daniel Palmer had changed most of BJs ideas and saved the school.  ACA have criticized BJ Palmer since 1924 !!  S. Homola have NEVER propagated for research in chiropractic. Neither have Barrett. It is the research that have changed chiropractic in to a modern profession. Homola is working together with Barrett. They both worked with the same goal. In 2002 Homola joined ACA. Anyone can propagate for that type of ideas inside ACA if one want to.

mckenzievmd you wrote:

“Helge,
Your posts are repetitive and largely incoherent, and you clearly aren’t listening to any voice except your own.” 

What is incoherent in my writing? Tell me and I will try to straighten things up. I have noticed that no one here has written anything else then what Barrett says. Harriet Hall is an adviser to Barrett and Steve Novella is “scientific advisor” to ACSH.  I understand it is difficult to learn new things about “the sceptical movement” But do not trust my word check the facts! See, if I em right or wrong.

If Barretts picture of chiropractic was wright there would not be any licensed chiropractor in any country. There would not open so many chiropractic educations in old universities in Europe and other parts of the world, as it is today. I definitively listen to what you say! And if you go back and check you will see that I do answer questions directed to me.

It is a problem that you do not criticise the existing chiropractic , but only read “sceptical”  leaders ideas about chiropractic. Why not being sceptical to your own ideas?

[ Edited: 05 October 2011 03:34 PM by Helge ]
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Posted: 05 October 2011 05:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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I talk with chiropractors all the time, including those that see veterinary patients in my hospital. They routinely blame subluxations for all kinds of diseases, reject well-established principles of physyiology, neurology, infetcious disease, and other aspects of scientific medicine, and otherwise display a profoundly anti-scientific mindset. You like to blame Stephen Barrett for every criticism of chiropractic, but that’s just your obsession. Many of us have come to our skepticism about chiropractic entirely independantly, and while I respect Barrett and the work he does, your characterization of other critics as mindless follwoers of his is just an ad hominem and an excuse not to address the actual criticisms of “existing chiropractic” we make.

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Posted: 05 October 2011 10:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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You know a few months back I met a lady that does chiropractic treatment on horses,
I still can’t wrap my mind around a smallish woman doing musculoskeletal manipulation on a horse.

I’ve never watched it so have no clue if they use any tools or what.

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Posted: 06 October 2011 05:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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Are you sure it’s a chiropractic treatment what she does, CC? smirk

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Posted: 06 October 2011 06:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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mckenzievmd@

I do not blame Barrett for all critic against chiropractors. But it seems as he is responsible for most of the unserious criticism against chiropractors. I guess it is because he have the same
views as he had wen he was a leader for one of AMAs subcommittees to the “committee against quackery” See #32,#34,#41,#47,#55,#65.The committee wanted to contain and eliminate Chiropractic.
  Have you never wondered, why he never criticize Chiropractic schools curriculum?  This for example: 

http://www.nuhs.edu/academics/college-of-professional-studies/chiropractic-medicine/curriculum/trimester-by-trimester/

You say you talk to chiropractors all the time and “those that see veterinary patients in my hospital. They routinely blame subluxations for all kinds of diseases, reject well-established principles of physyiology, neurology, infetcious disease, and other aspects of scientific medicine, and otherwise display a profoundly anti-scientific mindset.”

Ask them if they belong to a chiropractic organization, and complain to that
organization, Because a behavior like that is bad for chiropractic, of course.
It seem as those person you refer to not have visited a chiropractic scool.
A little info about chiro education.:

http://www.cce-usa.org/Home_Page.html
http://www.cce-usa.org/uploads/2012-01_CCE_STANDARDS.pdf
http://apps.who.int/medicinedocs/documents/s14076e/s14076e.pdf

[ Edited: 06 October 2011 08:43 AM by Helge ]
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Posted: 06 October 2011 06:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm@

Spinal manipulation on a horse is not necessary a hard work. But massage is.

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Posted: 08 October 2011 01:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 05 October 2011 10:53 PM

You know a few months back I met a lady that does chiropractic treatment on horses,
I still can’t wrap my mind around a smallish woman doing musculoskeletal manipulation on a horse.

I’ve never watched it so have no clue if they use any tools or what.

I think you can safely call it musculoskeletal ‘manipulation’. There is no way she could do anything to affect the skeletal alignment of an animal outweighing her by a half ton, except in her imagination.

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Posted: 09 October 2011 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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Asanta@

How much have you studied the subject?

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Posted: 09 October 2011 05:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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Helge, I’ve stayed out of this discussion because I don’t have the specialized training to get involved, however, I’ve been on this forum for a number of years, and as a physical scientist, I can recognize technical experts in their fields.  I assure you that Asanta, Magyver, and McKenzie all have a great deal more education and practical experience in anatomy and physiology than you have demonstrated. 

Your questioning their credentials only shows your lack of advanced education in those fields.

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