The question is, just to restate it: “Can You Be Good Without God?”
I don’t see how anyone can discuss this question without acknowledging that there are two terms here that are so rife with assumptions that we need to flesh them out. Those terms are ‘good,’ and ‘god’. I guess I should start by asking any of the atheists here, what do those terms mean to you? How do you define ‘good’ and ‘god’? (And please do not quote a dictionary for me. I want to know what it REALLY means to YOU. Use your own words.)
In order to have any meaningful discourse, we must define our terms. I know that when I use the word ‘God,’ i am using it very differently than an Atheist is. So, we need to agree on working definitions. The ball is in the Atheist’s court, so to speak.
The question is, just to restate it: “Can You Be Good Without God?”
I don’t see how anyone can discuss this question without acknowledging that there are two terms here that are so rife with assumptions that we need to flesh them out. Those terms are ‘good,’ and ‘god’. I guess I should start by asking any of the atheists here, what do those terms mean to you? How do you define ‘good’ and ‘god’? (And please do not quote a dictionary for me. I want to know what it REALLY means to YOU. Use your own words.)
In order to have any meaningful discourse, we must define our terms. I know that when I use the word ‘God,’ i am using it very differently than an Atheist is. So, we need to agree on working definitions. The ball is in the Atheist’s court, so to speak.
I am starting to feel like the Christians I debate with at school. I would say nice is moralistic, but then you would want me to explain that to. So for now we’ll just use general definitions. Ok?
This reminds me of the exchanges in Plato’s Republic where Glaucon and Thrasymachus are debating what “justice” is, and they start out with a really vague definition and, through various examples, come to realize that they need very specific definitions of what they mean, or else they come around to a conclusion which is completely opposite of what they intended.
Although it can be annoying to hash out specific definitions, it is necessary, because otherwise you can argue until you’re blue in the face and eventually it will come down to:
“Well, that’s exactly what I mean. I advocate X, and X is good!”
“That’s completely wrong! X is not good, Y is good and X is bad!”
And then you realize why you’ve had problems all along, because you’ve been talking at cross-purposes. So, yes, please do set down definitions, and then have at it!
yes, Zminer, you are correct. Plato’s stuff is full of this: we need a definition that is as concrete as possible, that we both agree on, so that in discussion we both MEAN the same thing when we use a word.
To get back on track, I think it would be most appropriate not to give a definition of what the idea of “God” means to you personally, since that would be more like debating someone’s personal feelings on God rather than the larger idea of God. Maybe it would be better to choose something like, “the Christian God,” or “a being than which none greater can be conceived,” or some other fairly set definition. If you rely on a relativistic personal definition, you may fall into a trap of, “well, that’s not what MY God says!”
I’m not saying that that’s what has to happen, I’m just making suggestions.
Good — Generally speaking, this is a word that applies to moral or ethical behavior, which are abstractions originating in the human consciousness. It is best defined by reference to its opposite. Evil characterizes any actions which tend to harm other people or things in some way (without a good reason for doing so, as in the case of policemen arresting a criminal). Good is the habit of avoiding evil and/or actually helping people, including yourself.
God — In the context of this discussion, I take God to mean an imaginary (or postulated, if you prefer) being which is supposed to be the personification of all the abstractions of human consciousness. This being is supernatural in its nature, and offers no other evidence for its existance beyond the conjecture that he must exist in order for human consciousness to exist.
Maybe each person can cobble together their preferred definition and we can go from there? Or check out this page, where the writer purports to create a definition of God combining the views of all major religions:
Aw, that’s a shame. I don’t really have the time to join another forum, either, especially since the mere question of what “God” means can take forever to answer.
My primary forum is at augustachronicle.com, and we once had a thread devoted to that question alone ("What do you mean by God?"). We never DID get a good answer to that question, that everyone could agree with.
