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Is Anything in the Bible True?
Posted: 28 August 2007 10:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Then why haven’t we found these documents of eyewitness accounts?  I really do think there was a template from mythology of other dying and rising gods.  Where did he get the idea that these documents by his follower exist?  That is what doesn’t make sense.  We found the Nag Hammadi and the Gnostic gospels, so why not those documents too?  If they were so important, why weren’t they kept in the Great Library of Alexandria?  I suppose someone is going to say they are hidden under the Vatican?  Sorry, but I’m skeptical about all of this.

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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 28 August 2007 10:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Mriana - 28 August 2007 10:08 PM

Then why haven’t we found these documents of eyewitness accounts?  I really do think there was a template from mythology of other dying and rising gods.  Where did he get the idea that these documents by his follower exist?  That is what doesn’t make sense.  We found the Nag Hammadi and the Gnostic gospels, so why not those documents too?  If they were so important, why weren’t they kept in the Great Library of Alexandria?  I suppose someone is going to say they are hidden under the Vatican?  Sorry, but I’m skeptical about all of this.

We do have the documents—they’re what went into the Bible. (In fragmentary accounts, interpolated with a certain amount of falsehood).

The originals no longer remain, but that’s just the same virtually as all documents for the first and second centuries. Do you know how few original documents remain from those days? Virtually none. Certainly any documents that were read regularly had to be recopied regularly by scribes. The other documents remain (e.g., the Dead Sea Scrolls) because they weren’t used regularly—they were buried in pots in the desert!

And anyhow, all of the scholars in this debate—including those who think these were all myths—believe that there were texts in the early centuries AD. So I don’t see how this is a relevant problem.

As for the Great Library of Alexandria, it was destroyed, probably by early Christians. Nothing of it remains, and all of its contents were lost. So I don’t see how you can be concerned that texts about Jesus weren’t found there. We don’t know if they were there or not.

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Posted: 28 August 2007 11:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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dougsmith - 28 August 2007 10:14 PM
Mriana - 28 August 2007 10:08 PM

Then why haven’t we found these documents of eyewitness accounts?  I really do think there was a template from mythology of other dying and rising gods.  Where did he get the idea that these documents by his follower exist?  That is what doesn’t make sense.  We found the Nag Hammadi and the Gnostic gospels, so why not those documents too?  If they were so important, why weren’t they kept in the Great Library of Alexandria?  I suppose someone is going to say they are hidden under the Vatican?  Sorry, but I’m skeptical about all of this.

We do have the documents—they’re what went into the Bible. (In fragmentary accounts, interpolated with a certain amount of falsehood).

Not to sound like Bill Cosby, but… “Yeah, right!”  Those were not written by the actual author attributed to them.  There is a great amount of falsehood to them.

The originals no longer remain, but that’s just the same virtually as all documents for the first and second centuries. Do you know how few original documents remain from those days? Virtually none. Certainly any documents that were read regularly had to be recopied regularly by scribes. The other documents remain (e.g., the Dead Sea Scrolls) because they weren’t used regularly—they were buried in pots in the desert!

No, they have been extrapolated, rewritten, editted, forged, and to borrow a pun, God knows what all.  I have no belief in them.

As for the Great Library of Alexandria, it was destroyed, probably by early Christians. Nothing of it remains, and all of its contents were lost. So I don’t see how you can be concerned that texts about Jesus weren’t found there. We don’t know if they were there or not.

I know.  That’s why I mentioned it.  So much history was lost with that move and it was partly due because Christians wanted their way and for the world to believe what they wanted them to believe.  So, again, I say anything since then are forgeries.

OK so I guess I’m going to hell.  If there was a hell.  rolleyes  I am not convinced.

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Posted: 28 August 2007 11:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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I believe that the bible is actually pretty much like a book of fables, legends and made up stuff and a little bit (very tiny) truth thrown in for good measure. Sort of like my Q’R'Beth that I am adding pieces as often as I can on this forum to show why and how anyone falls for a religion that promises you things they know that they can not keep. I believe the bible is 95% fiction 5% truth and was written by either drunks or con artist of their time to perhaps control people pretty much like Joseph Smith did when he started the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons) and all religions were either started by men with a motive that had nothing to do with religion per se but to either control others because they were high on drugs or alcohol and imagined it all that “God” talked to them.

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In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holely Goat I bring the truth

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Posted: 28 August 2007 11:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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I still want Bob Price in here!  :(

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 28 August 2007 11:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Mriana - 28 August 2007 11:05 PM

We do have the documents—they’re what went into the Bible. (In fragmentary accounts, interpolated with a certain amount of falsehood).

Not to sound like Bill Cosby, but… “Yeah, right!”  Those were not written by the actual author attributed to them.  There is a great amount of falsehood to them.

Once again, Mriana, you aren’t appreciating my position. When did I ever claim that these were written by the actual author attributed to them? When did I disagree that there was a great amount of falsehood to them?

You are arguing a straw-man.

Mriana - 28 August 2007 11:05 PM

The originals no longer remain, but that’s just the same virtually as all documents for the first and second centuries. Do you know how few original documents remain from those days? Virtually none. Certainly any documents that were read regularly had to be recopied regularly by scribes. The other documents remain (e.g., the Dead Sea Scrolls) because they weren’t used regularly—they were buried in pots in the desert!

No, they have been extrapolated, rewritten, editted, forged, and to borrow a pun, God knows what all.

You say “No” and then all that follows agrees with what I am saying. Yes, they were edited and rewritten. I don’t know who you think you’re arguing with, but it’s not me.

This is an extremely frustrating exercise, Mriana. I get the feeling that you aren’t reading what I’m writing, but arguing against some other Christian person who is not present on this Forum. When you want to discuss the issue with me rather than this nonexistent straw-man, let me know.

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Posted: 28 August 2007 11:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Mriana, stop lighting matches next to doug, his straw is quite flammable. smile

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Posted: 28 August 2007 11:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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I dooo like this place. I’ve not even grazed the surface here, so perhaps the site I will share with you has already been presented, discussed, debated ad nauseum, but it will save me a great deal of time, and a lot of wear and tear on my already squishy brain to simply post the URL for you.
The film is called “Zeitgeist” and you will find it in its entirety, absolutely free of charge at h**p://zeitgeistmovie.com/.
The most well done propaganda film I have personally ever viewed. The lead-in is excellent, and gives a fairly accurate account of the foundations upon which former, and present-day religions are based. Suddenly, all of the 9-11 conspiracy theories, and some of them are really quite convincing. An interesting view.
I have however, not researched the sources in detail, yet when I find the time, I certainly shall. Being Jewish, I could have quite easily taken some offense to various assundry throughout the film, and most definitely by the use of the term “Judeo-Christian”. I am not a rabbi, nor do I consider myself orthodox, or even “traditional” though it was indeed my upbringing, I consider myself a scientist/realist/humanist before all else.
There were a series of books written by men, which may be as genuine an account historically as it can ever be, that ‘we’ refer to as the “Tanakh”. First five books being the “Torah”. Mostly stories of families, sets of rules by which to live, including issues of hygiene, lovemaking and well thought-out standards of morals by which one may avoid nasty repercussions should one follow those simple rules to the best of ones’ abilities.
Christians call it “The Old Testament”. We call it “The Bible”. Apparently, when G*d changed his/her/its mind during the times of the Sadducees, the Pharisees, and the Punkinseeds, the seperated groups evidently felt rather strongly that it had become time to produce a “New Testament”. This new book utilizes numerous names, events, amazing monsters and miracles. Most of which are only revisions, and redundancies taken directly from the “Old Testament”. That whacky ol’ King James. Gotta love him.
Altered in such a manner as to completely void the original texts, and serving the dual purpose of causing mass hatred for the Jewish people. The words are clear, and the implications are quite simple to see. The inconsistancies, screwed-up dates, people with absolutely no histories appearing out of nowhere including the “Big Res”.
The “cover-up” by the Catholic/Christian church is handled by men placed into positions of priesthood.
These men are charged with the task of “defining” and explaining away those historical writer’s/researchers’ incredible blunders. And if you doubt for even one second the teachings of those men/women, you will find yourself burning for eternity in a flaming pit of poo.
I have bored myself silly, and I have a deadline to attempt to miraculously meet, Jayzus-Willing. I hadn’t meant to drone on. Sorry guys/gals. As you can probably see, my head isn’t into it right now. I’m usually much more humorous, and relaxed. Thanks for the ears though.

To be continued…. I really like your cat, Mriana. Reminds me very much of a dear old friend.

Bee

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Posted: 28 August 2007 11:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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morgantj - 28 August 2007 11:23 PM

Mriana, stop lighting matches next to doug, his straw is quite flammable. smile

LOL  Oh my!  I wouldn’t want to cause him harm.  :(  That would be bad.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 28 August 2007 11:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Beesting - 28 August 2007 11:26 PM

I really like your cat, Mriana. Reminds me very much of a dear old friend.

Bee

Thanks.  She reminds me of Scarlette- my 1/2 Persian cat.  smile

Anyway, I have heard of Zeitgeist and watched the preview.  I think the preview alone speaks well of the movie.  I can’t wait to see it.

Doug, the way I’m reading your posts, it sounds, to me at least, like you accept a lot of the stuff presented as history about the Bible.  Of course, I know you know that not all of it is true and a lot of it is a bunch of apologists running around trying to get everyone to accept the Bible as a history book.  There are too many Biblical scholars and archeologists who say differently, which I’m sure you know also.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 28 August 2007 11:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Mriana - 28 August 2007 11:36 PM
morgantj - 28 August 2007 11:23 PM

Mriana, stop lighting matches next to doug, his straw is quite flammable. smile

LOL  Oh my!  I wouldn’t want to cause him harm.  :(  That would be bad.

On second thought, I do have some graham crackers, marshmellows, and hersheys chocalate that I need to get rid of…

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Posted: 28 August 2007 11:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Ooooo!  Smoooores!  LOL

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 28 August 2007 11:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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I am half Jewish (Hebrew) myself having had a Jewish mother and an American Indian father and was not raised in the Jewish religion but the Christian religion since my mother was a Methodist but I have to agree with you the bible is a very mixed up book which is my whole point that it is 95% fiction written to suit who ever wrote it or rewrote it to suit whatever purpose they had at the time rather to control the masses or were high on wine or drugs and imagined “God” spoke to them.

I believe the Torah may have been written the same way and as for the Koran I can only imagine what Mohammad had in mind when he wrote that or what any one had in mind when they wrote any of their so-called-inspired-of-God books.

As for proof it or any part of it is the truth I would have to see the evidence for my self to believe it and I mean physical evidence not by trust or faith it is true.

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Posted: 29 August 2007 12:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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I agree with you, HG, whole heartedly!  I think the board is going to emplode!  That’s twice I’ve agreed with you tonight.  LOL  You do know that Mohammad had a dream and thus started the Islamic religion don’t you?  Well that is the short version at least, but the dream was part of the inspiration to start the Islamic religion.  He called it a vision.  It’s amazing what people will attribute to an invisible being.  rolleyes  It was just a dream and he called it message from God.  Riiight!  It seems to me that we humans have a tendency to function on primitive ideas and then attribute them to a deity, esp if we can’t explain them.  It’s a shame more people don’t look at the neuro-psych and psychology studies that explain why we have some of the dreams we have.  Some are just dreams and some are our brains working overtime to figure something out.  I do know there was a time I had a lot of dreams while I was really getting into trying to find the answers to my questions about why all the mythical stories sound alike.  The deeper I dove into the subject to find answers the more I had dreams.  My brain was working overtime to sort out the “memes” from the truth, until one day I was in a Hindu class I’m taking and my brain just shut down at the shock that there was no historic Jesus and no god.  Intellectually on the surface I realized there was no god, but I’m surmizing that it had not solidified until that day when my brain shut down for a moment after saying aloud, “Krishna is Vishnu incarnate.” which my prof confirmed and then my brain did a Julia Sweeney (Krishna (anoited) is Vishnu incarnate.  Christ (anoited) is God incarnate.  Oh my freakin’ God there is no god!”) and I had a momentary mental lapse- probably lasting about 5 seconds, but still it was a sudden shock to the system.

I had heard of this before among other religious scholars, but never experienced it before.  I thought it was just an over reaction to seeing various evidence and coming to a final conclusion, but in actuality, the brain sort of suddenly explodes the meme… so to speak.  It sounds funny to me now and I can laugh about it, but at the time the actual internal realization was a shock to the system.  It wasn’t just quoting various sources and saying, “My various studies from this and that source has led me to believe there is no god and religious texts are just a myth” (surface knowledge), but an actual internalization of the evidence I had learned over the years.  If that makes any sense at all.  It may be that one has to experience it to know what I’m talking about.

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Posted: 29 August 2007 01:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Holy Cow, Holy Goat! My father is Cherokee/Jew. I thought I was the only one. There ain’t room ‘nuff in this here town fer two of us fella’. DRAW!!!
Boink-Poke-Boink-Poke!! Arrows and Bagels all flying about.
Small world, but I’d sure hate to have to wax and polish it. I’m supposed to be working on an article right now. I must be a “procrastinationist”. See what you people have done to me? Taking manna out of my childrens’ mouths, through your evil temptations. Bad! NO! Get off the table!! Bad Kitty! Squirt-Squirt. (my best spray-bottle-deterrent imitation).
Do you think it would be okay to begin a new thread concerning “Procrastionationism”? I am afterall, quite the expert, and I sense somehow that my work is not nearly finished. Somehow.
Mriana…..Mriana? I’m a new guy, so just bare with me here. I like your KAT, but I’m afraid I cannot exactly be in complete agreement with you on the issues of psychology, psychiatry and the neuro-sciences. Not that I don’t understand your POV, and I doooo, but those practices are no more than speculative. In order to comprehend the human mind, one would have to actually posess some sort of supernatural powers. Telestuff. Would one not?
This dealy we have stuffed inside our craniums can not be tapped. Now THAT’S a fact. You can drill holes into them, but you’ll only produce a handful of gook, and still no answers to the ticking question.
Cat scans, Brain scans, Scan Scans. It isn’t going to happen. Sure! The proverbial “They” said man will never fly”. Well “They” were correct. Men don’t fly. Airplanes do. The metamorphosis is evidently not going to be complete for several thousand, perhaps millions of years. I fly in my dreams all the time, and I LOVE my dreams, because they are clear, HDTV quality, with surround sound, and I just know I’m smelling popcorn (and shmoors).
Psychiatry can not hold a candle to wisdom. Wisdom is a learned process through experience over vast periods of time, tradition, history, and shrinkiness will never catch up to what we already know. What we were born with, and what has always existed since the big gang-bang. Whoops! Freudian slip there.
Life is contradictory. Yes it is. No It isn’t!
The biggest mistake knowledgewise that humans make, is seperating themselves from one-another. Wars for this, wars for that. Learning progresses. It continues to progress. It becomes too much. BAM!!! Seperation. Start all over. New sect. Learning. learning, learning. Progressing, progressing…..BAM!! WAR!!! Start all over.
It is fun for me to imagine how incredibly intelligent humankind would be today if politicians, religious leaders, and downright imbiciles had not been allowed to intervene in the processes, and the progression merely for their own self-serving opinions. Usually monetary, and sometimes plain and simple insanity. GODS are the most widely used excuses. Can’t tax GOD, you know.
Humans are perpetually allowing themselves to be hindered from going further. It is probably fear of success. Success can certainly be a frightening thing, and thusly we press that self-destruct button. It is tragic, and stoopit, and a shameful display of ignorance. I for one, am embarrassed. Guilty, and I feel the need for a flogging. OOPS. That’s another forum. Heh.

Bee

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