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global warming: fact or fiction
Posted: 28 August 2007 07:10 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Global warming (GW) is accepted by most corners of society and doesn’t bring up much contraversy.

People are told all the time to “go green” and to recycle, lessen ourselves on “dependence” on oil, and take other steps to “save the planet”.

But has anyone analyzed the motives of these environmentalists?
Are there any real studies done that conclude that CO2 actually increases warmth?
Mars has an atmosphere of almost pure CO2, why is its temp down below freezing?
Why did global warming, if real, occur much more now when carbon emissions are more diluted?
What tests from GW skeptics, if any, do global warming have to measure up to?

here’s what the skeptics have to say

Can anyone (GW proponent) please explain their criticisms with the video?

I simply want to know the science for and against the claims of global warming. Is it fact, or fiction?

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Posted: 28 August 2007 07:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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I think I heard that most of the CO2 produced is not by humans, but by the environment. The world may be getting hotter, or it may just be a small phase. My guess is that Global Warming is occuring, but we’re not the cause of it.

[ Edited: 28 August 2007 08:20 PM by Martian ]
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Posted: 28 August 2007 07:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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redmartian89,
HERE is a link to a long and contentious thread touching on this topic. FWIW, I think the evidence that climate is changing is quite strong. I think the issue of how much humans are responsible for this is less clear, but I think the suggestion that some of it results from human activity is very reasonable. I also think that definitive data on a topic that involves processes spread over long periods of time is hard to come by. To some extent, I think a generalist like myself has to rely on specialists in the relevant fields to vouch for or against the credibility of the data, and though such specialists can be wrong even in great numbers, and extreme alarmism is seldom justified, I have no problem with a working hypothesis that human activity is changing the climate since I think the contravening evidence is not especially strong either. Anyway, I don’t have nearly the passionate conviction on the topic some forum members do, so I’m sure you’ll all have fun slashing away at each others arguments on the subject. grin

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Posted: 28 August 2007 07:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Mars has an atmosphere of almost pure CO2, why is its temp down below freezing?

That’s incredible!

What a perceptive question?

What is the air pressure at the Martian surface?  What is the distance from the Sun?

Why not do comparisons to Venus?  Is there any CO2 there?

psik

PS - Of course I had to go look it up. 

“The pressure of Mars’s atmosphere varies with the season, ranging from 6 to 10 millibars (1 millibar is approximately one one-thousandth of the air pressure at the surface of Earth).”

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/LaurenMikulski.shtml

#  The radius of the earth’s orbit is 1.0 AU.
# The radius of Mars’ orbit is approximately 1.5 AU.

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~soper/Orbits/marsorbit.html

I think the sunlight should be inversely proportional to the square of the distance so it should get about 44% the intensity of sunlight as Earth.

[ Edited: 28 August 2007 07:56 PM by psikeyhackr ]
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Posted: 28 August 2007 08:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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At this point, I guess the big questions are “regardless of if it is human caused or not, can humans still stop it and if so, how?” In my view we are the only ones who can, and since I do believe in the available proof out there, I also understand there is not a lot of time left to do something about it.

To question these proofs might not be the wisest and more effective action at the moment. If we all decide to work together to limit industrial emissions of greenhouse gases out there, at least the next generations will have the chance to judge our decision.

[ Edited: 29 August 2007 01:14 AM by ZeiS ]
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If the ignorance of nature gave birth to such a variety of gods, the knowledge of this nature is calculated to destroy them. La Système de la Nature, Baron d’Holbach (1723–1789)

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Posted: 28 August 2007 08:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I think most of what is said about global warming is true, even though some of it is censored and some of global warming comes naturally.  I do think we have contributed significantly so that nature can’t handle anymore, which makes it worse.  Naturally there is some rise in chemicals that cause global warming, but the rain forest and alike can handle it, but not when there is the human element contributing more than what is natural.

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Posted: 28 August 2007 08:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Simple solution:
1. Stop breeding all cattle, pigs and sheep worldwide and become vegetarians.
2. Conduct a lottery such that only one woman in ten, worldwide can have one child.
3. Outlaw all motor vehicles that get less than 50 passenger miles per gallon of fuel.
4. Learn to eat cold, uncooked food.
5. Dress warmly in winter instead of heating homes.
6. Decompose all volatile halogenated organic compounds and make it illegal to manufacture them.

Either those, or learn to swim, since much of the low-lying land will be flooded.

From my own reading, I think we do not have the self-discipline to prevent global warming so we’ll just have to learn to live with it, that is, the few of us who survive.

Occam

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Posted: 29 August 2007 02:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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I enjoy the blamers. It’s GWs’ fault, and if you will elect a democrat as president of the United States, “global-warming” will be addressed, and quite possibly stopped altogether. I love that stuff.
This earth has been sloughing critters off its back for billions of years. It is what it does. It gets a fever, it does what it has to do in order to survive. That is that. Simple.
Politics do not figure into the global equation. People do not figure into the earth’s little quirkinesses. People have become so incredibly pompous, arrogant, and egomaniacal, that they actually think that they have an effect on this ride? Huh-Uh!
When the earth decides to dump us, it’s going to dump us. Like fleas. Talk about hell-fire and brimstone. Yep! Doesn’t matter your religious beliefs, your moral standards, your ethics, charity, nor having a smoke in the Wal-Mart of your choice.
We’re goners. PERIOD! Maybe not today, but sometime. It’s been happening for millenia, and we are not the first. I know it in my very shorts because I posess the ability to reason, and to think for myself.
This idiocy of blaming anyone EVER for the things that occur in this universe is only a “hate-creator” and a human being with as much knowledge as a peanut. Less. A peanut knows it’s gonna go into the Skippy factory, and its gonna be smooth and creamy….or maybe even chunky. But its a goner for sure.
The inability to accept the demise of “OUR” great civilization, is an arrogance that far exceeds my conception. How is it that so many millions can be so stupid? Well….stupidity is what kills people. Not a hole in the ozone. The hole is inevitable. Assholes can be prevented.
I sure hope we get Hillary in office. Then we can all have insurance, health care, low fuel prices, a chicken in every pot, pot for every chicken, a fair wage, lower taxes, and a rainbow will be visible every day, with little fairy-munchkins frollicking all about, making us sandwiches, and tickling our dopamine glands. WEEEEEE!!!
Good grief.

Bee

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Posted: 29 August 2007 08:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Beesting - 29 August 2007 02:33 AM

This earth has been sloughing critters off its back for billions of years. It is what it does. It gets a fever, it does what it has to do in order to survive. That is that. Simple.
...
Bee

I’d rather not have my kids and grandkids “sloughted off”. Or much of the surrounding ecosystem we have built our civilization around.

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Posted: 29 August 2007 08:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Such a fatalistic view, Beesting.  I would like to think that we are capable of figuring out not only the causes of problems we face, but also the solution.  Science is a powerful tool in this direction if we just use it and take the results into account.  It can potentially solve some of our problems.

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Posted: 29 August 2007 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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The difference in voting for a democrat is that the democrat actually cares and will TRY to make a difference, wheras the republicans have not even bothered to accept global warming as science- let alone changed EPA laws to reflect that science or committed to the Kyoto Treaty that has been ignored.  What I’ve seen from conservative politicians is a complete lack of respect for our environment and our future.  Democrats might not be able to change this country’s bad habits, but at least they are doing things like raising awareness, talking about it, and hopefully passing some legislation.  Wouldn’t it be nice to see a government that rewarded people for buying hybrids instead of hummers?  Wouldn’t it be nice to see a government put money into alternative fuel research?  Wouldn’t it be nice to see a government not just talk about Hydrogen vehicles but actually investing in that idea?  Wouldn’t it be nice to not have a man in the whitehouse who has his hands tied by all the oil companies that have funded his party over the last however many years?  On and on and on…

Just to back up my arguments, you can go here to see all the ways that Bush has screwed us on global warming.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=the_bush_administration_s_environmental_record&bush_env_general_topic_areas=bush_env_globalWarming
You can scan that site further to find other ways that his administration has abused the environment.

Give me a good reason to vote Republican at all.  They’ve failed in every aspect in the last eight years… environment isn’t even at the top of the list.

And it is my opinion that the martian clones who started this thread are shills.  I find it hard to believe that anyone who is thoughtful on the subject of global warming would establish such weak arguments in their opening remarks.

[ Edited: 29 August 2007 09:35 AM by ticktock ]
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Posted: 29 August 2007 10:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Beesting - 29 August 2007 02:33 AM

The inability to accept the demise of “OUR” great civilization, is an arrogance that far exceeds my conception. How is it that so many millions can be so stupid? Well….stupidity is what kills people.

A civilization that “accepts” its demise doesn’t have the brains to qualify as a civilization.

Stupidity kills people alright.

38 years after the moon landing and we are supposed to believe economists with PhDs from Harvard and the University of Chicago can’t figure out planned obsolescence is going on in automobiles?  YEAH RIGHT!  The curious thing is I meet people who say they never heard of planned obsolescence.  This stupid civilization runs on information hiding and lies.

But then the economists don’t talk about the depreciation of all of that garbage.

Shouldn’t the climatologists say something about the pollution created by producing all of that garbage?

psik

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Posted: 29 August 2007 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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What scares me most is the degree of greed of many leaders. We do have the means, we do have the funds. But the leaders are not really interested in saving this planet. I guess greed makes people very stupid. Don’t they realize that all this profit will be meaningless if the planet becomes uninhabitable? Don’t they care about THEIR future generations? Well I guess I am too idealistic. But stupidity and ignorance always shock me. The bad decisions and mistakes we make can be as astonishing as our biggest achievements. And if we don’t do it right this time, this balance can seal our fate.

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If the ignorance of nature gave birth to such a variety of gods, the knowledge of this nature is calculated to destroy them. La Système de la Nature, Baron d’Holbach (1723–1789)

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Posted: 29 August 2007 12:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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the evidence that global warming/climate change is real is too strong to bother arguing. that human activity plays a part is likewise, too strong to bother arguing. all the ways that human activity is polluting is too documented to bother mentioning and/or arguing. that the reasons for maintaing such pollutions for economical purpose is too strong to bother arguing (shit, even our mafia don, Bush, reminds us that preserving the enviornment is not as important as ensuring excessive profiteering for a small group of his and the politicians constituents).

so we can (or should be able to) see that degradation of the enviornment is deeply rooted in the existing structure of the industrialised societies: capitalism. shitting on our planet is acceptable so long as it makes a profit. its the lesson we have been learning over and over again with capitalism. if left unregulated - or not regulated enough (which ought to tell us that it should be abandoned; if it needs so much regulation then clearly what we need is popular participation in the management of our affairs) - it will not only exploit the Hell out of Mother Earth but its inhabitants too (third world inhabitants, im speaking of You!). The costs of the enviornment and humanity is not a factor though it appears that popular movements are having an impact by getting corporations to jump on the “green” bandwagon (even if its just for imagery).

the real issue to resolving this is not uninventing the wheel or reinventing it; but rather, fixing it; improving; correcting it; perfecting it; tweeking it. And this applies not just to global warming.

we live in a globalized society so we will need a globalized movement to change the structure of our global society so as not to tolerate such exploitation.

what you do is: 1) you get your ass educated. you learn about the problem(s). you come to understand them. you take pains not to dupe yourself with apologetics or deceit; you dont gamble on something this severe with dubious doubts to justify inactions. you discipline your mind to look at problems constructively and appropriately. then 2) you get organized. you pick a topic like anti-war, abolition of the wage system, debt relief for those ravaged by the World Bank, IMF, USAID, etc, or global warming and you build up an organized movement and then 3) you take action. where there is room for peaceful struggles you take that route till its exhausted.

get educated
get organized
get active

passivity and apathy wont resolve shit.

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Posted: 29 August 2007 01:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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I agree with truthaddict, we can not afford not to take action. If we don’t take action, we will lose our home.

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Posted: 29 August 2007 07:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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I’ll agree that the first two posts were made by shills, but can’t say I agree with any of the other socialistic “simple solutions” being posed. Would love to see how those simple solutions will be carried out and enforced in one country, what’s more the world. Let me see, where did I hear this before: “The world is under assault today by religious extremists who… try to control what others think and do.” Oh, that’s right! It’s from CFI’s own PoI podcast! Imagine that, using science to do the same thing! You might just have something there.

Amazing to me once again that this topic is met with by the exact same fanaticism as bible-thumping religious zealots where there is no further room for argument (I’ve no quarrel with you, you take that up with God), while questions being posed are ignored, ridiculed, or met with “do some reading” (much akin to “read the Bible, heathen!”).

Since no one seemed to have the answer in the previous thread, I’ll pose the question again. What is the CORRECT temperature and atmospheric make-up of the Earth in order for life to survive? Please provide the temperature and atmospheric chemical makeup the Earth must maintain in order for no/minimal disasters to occur as being predicted global warming or cooling advocates, whichever it is that’s supposed to be occurring now, as I’ll remind everyone that 30 years ago we were suposedly facing global cooling and the possibility of nuclear winter, while in the 1920s there was another scare about global warming. Since we are being told that a few degrees change, be it WARMER OR COOLER, depending on what decade it is, will cause unprecedented disasters, then one would think that this temperature and atmospheric make-up HAS to be known in order to make all of these claims for as much as 100 years into the future. And along with these magical numbers, please tell us how these ideal numbers have been determined.

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