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Posted: 30 August 2007 10:15 PM   [ Ignore ]
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[ Edited: 22 January 2008 08:33 PM by zarcus ]
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Posted: 31 August 2007 08:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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cool grin What a crock! Richard Dawkins is only a non-believer but his forum reminds me more of a Fundy Christian than a secular forum and if he is the closes to a militant atheist then Jesus Christ was a militant theist. A militant atheist takes no prisoners and does not spare words, names, titles or information about the enemy regardless who gets hurt and has no regards for the feelings of the enemy. Dawkins has none of these qualities on his forum. The Church of Dog forum on the other hand as well as several other militant atheist forums I have visited is a real war zone.The theist started the war and I do not see the harm myself of attacking the enemy hard because the enemy has been literally killing people in the name of their gods for thousands of years and to try to be nice to them is like kissing up to Hitler, Stalin, Castro or other despots including our own despot Bush.

However on this forum it is a whole different ball game where as it is basically a research educational inquiry and has nothing to do with war or battles or violence or negative conversation because it would defeat their purpose. But Dawkins’ site is nothing but a forum with no aims or goals as I can see it. I like Ex-Christians only next to this site as they are just a little bit stronger in attacking theist and ban them off their site if they troll.

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Posted: 31 August 2007 09:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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[ Edited: 19 October 2007 10:12 PM by zarcus ]
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Posted: 31 August 2007 10:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens seem even more aligned with an agitator approach to confronting the faith biased community and are highly regarded.

Highly regarded by whom?

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Posted: 31 August 2007 10:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Alon - 31 August 2007 10:37 PM

Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens seem even more aligned with an agitator approach to confronting the faith biased community and are highly regarded.

Highly regarded by whom?

Supporters of an aggressive approach.

Edit: I wanted to add to the previous post that it is not only religion I was speaking of eradicating, but faith in general, especially a belief in god. If I could have it done sooner rather then later, that would be nice too.

Edit 2: Jason Rosenhouse has a critique of Chris Mooney’s evaluation of some data about belief, and then some. The analysis can be found on either site.

Mooney’s piece—http://scienceblogs.com/intersection/2007/08/i_fought_god_and_god_won.php

Jason’s piece—http://richarddawkins.net/article,1590,Polling-Data-on-Science-and-Religion,Jason-Rosenhouse#66851

[ Edited: 31 August 2007 10:57 PM by zarcus ]
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Posted: 31 August 2007 11:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I can’t help feeling that “militant” and “humanism” really don’t belong together. Some of the core principles of humanism (respect for individual autonomy, compassion and caring for others, respect for evidence and rational argument rather than dogma) seem fundamentally inconsistent with a militant stance. Certainly, direct speech and vigorous action are necessary, but I take the term militant to connote a degree of hostility and dogmatism not in keeping with humanism, at least as I think of it (and, of course, I’m hardly the last word on what humanism is). Anybody else bothered by the juxtaposition?

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Posted: 31 August 2007 11:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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I agree, Brennen, they don’t seem to go together, but there does seem to be some people who call themselves Humanists who act very militant.

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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 31 August 2007 11:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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zarcus - 31 August 2007 10:39 PM
Alon - 31 August 2007 10:37 PM

Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens seem even more aligned with an agitator approach to confronting the faith biased community and are highly regarded.

Highly regarded by whom?

Supporters of an aggressive approach.

Isn’t that like saying Pat Robertson is highly regarded by supporters of an aggressive approach on the other side?

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Posted: 01 September 2007 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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[ Edited: 19 October 2007 10:13 PM by zarcus ]
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Posted: 01 September 2007 12:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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I don’t think there can be peace with cult-like leaders such as Robertson, Farwell, and other Evangelical Fundamentalist extremists.  Their followers are so devoted that they will turn their back on anyone who doesn’t believe as they do, even family, if they do not impose their dogmatic ideology violently- whether it be verbal or physical.  Extremism does more harm than good, no matter who it comes from and whether they know it or not.  Peace can only happen when people stop imposing their views, esp dogmatic views, on each other.  The more forceful the imposing the more damage it does- no matter which side it is coming from.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 02 September 2007 03:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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“How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?”—Pat Robertson, The New World Order, p.227”—

There they go again attacking homosexuals. Whats with all this crap of attacking minorities? That is how militant atheist gets started. That is also how wars start and why there will never be world peace until the likes of Pat Robertson are eradicated along with religion. Actually as long as there is militant religion like the Fundies, the Muslims, the Zionist Jews and the Catholics there can never be peace on earth. But to eradicate them I believe is impossible, but a wonderful dream.

I did not mean to attack the author of this thread straight on per se, but the statement of the fact that Dawkins is by no means militant as the word militant comes from the word military as in war-like or to fight aggressively and take no prisoners.
Whenever I hear the word militant it reminds me of fighting an enemy pulling no punches but attacking them from all sides without mercy, without qualms or rules. The other way is to debate which although no one wins everyone gets to put in their own two cents and those listening on the sidelines sit as the judge and jury to weigh in who is and who isn’t right.
Thats what I see of Dawkins, the debater.

That is why I said “what a crocK” because Dawkins is anything but militant. Dawkins would rather run than fight.
Not that that is not the way to go, but it is not the way for everyone to go.
I on the other hand use either approach for which ever suits the best for the occasion of the moment. People like Robertson, Phelps or Roberts the militant approach is the only thing they understand and accept.

As for other leaders other than the Pope debating is the best course as war they will only turn and run.

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Posted: 02 September 2007 04:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Holely Goat
That is why I said “what a crocK” because Dawkins is anything but militant. Dawkins would rather run than fight.

I think you may be right that the word “militant” does not apply to Richard Dawkins, and I’m glad for that. Though, I do think he is a fighter.

To be honest, I have no intention of becoming “militant” or overly aggressive again. I started this thread to place myself in a position where the ideas of approaches may open up with me playing a kind of middle ground. I’ve argued against being to aggressive, or “militant” for about a year now.

But, the thread seems to be fairly dead. It’ll slowly turn into just another place to bash religion.

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Posted: 02 September 2007 09:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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I certainly agree that “militant” doesn’t seem to fit into the framework of humanism.  And we certainly recognize that a confrontational approach is worse than useless in converting theists to becoming secular humanists.  However, militant humanists do serve a purpose.  They galvanize the in-the-closet humanists and the wimpy humanists to take an active role in presenting the humanist philosophy to those around them.  While they won’t dent the beliefs of fundamentalists, they may help many who are uncommitted or who haven’t thought through their beliefs to do so.

Occam

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Posted: 03 September 2007 03:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Occam, what you say is entirely possible, but it’s also possible that the same militant atheists encourage the in-the-closet people to not only declare themselves atheists, but also engage in militant rhetoric. They do their best to tar the moderates of their own camp; just read what Dennett thinks about evolution popularizers who are religious or who say you can be a religious evolutionist.

If that sounds too abstract, ask yourself this: how many people did Pat Robertson inspire to declare themselves Christian and subsequently do good works as opposed to tell people God hates them?

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Posted: 03 September 2007 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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I guess I’ve been a whimpy Humanist for a long time, but I must admit Harris and Dawkins are encouraging.

You know, I really can’t even tell you how many people Pat Robertson has converted and they’ve done good works.  I really don’t pay any attention to Pat because he sounds a bit mental when he says, “God spoke to me and told me this or that.”  rolleyes  I’m sorry, but I have yet to have any thoughts in my head that are not my own and IF I did, I’d be running to a dr to find out if I have Schizophrenia or something.  Ah but I guess that is what makes me a rationalist and not Pat Robertson.

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Mriana
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Posted: 03 September 2007 11:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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I know Dawkins can be encouraging… but I also know what I said about him being the wrong kind of encouraging applies to me and a whole bunch of people on Pharyngula. It took me about two years to realize that he’s just a shrill extremist and that good secularist activism should be less clueless.

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