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Posted: 04 September 2007 02:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Meditation, which after all is simply calming oneself through breathing exercises, can aid in concentration. This has nothing whatever to do with quantum consciousness or supernatural crime prevention.

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Posted: 04 September 2007 03:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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dougsmith - 04 September 2007 02:40 PM

Meditation, which after all is simply calming oneself through breathing exercises, can aid in concentration. This has nothing whatever to do with quantum consciousness or supernatural crime prevention.

As a long term teacher of TM, I have certainly seen many benefits to the many people Ive taught over the years. But the relaxation effect of TM isnt derived through breathing exercises. TM is a purely mental (inner) technique, where the mind is allowed to settle down, and hence the bodily activity naturally follows.

Now a group of thousands practicing this TM technique certainly creates a powerful and measurebale effect (as verified by US governmenatal scientists while studying the effects on the Washington DC crime reduction study).  TM isnt a “supernatural” crime prevention technique, its completely natural and well documented in hundreds of studies…  e.g…
“Integrated brain functioning through TM” 
http://home.swipnet.se/tmdoctors/braindev.htm

Now, this is where Hagelin etc reckons that this settling down of the mind to its baseline level using TM meditation, allows the mind to identify with its source - that underlying field of nature, the quantum field. 
For the skeptics:  these arent modern new theories, they are recorded in ancient Vedic texts (by Vedic ‘scientists’) over three thousand years ago, and yet are backed by modern EEG studies etc for over 30 years.

But here I must draw the line, for its often difficult I know for the intellect to believe or accept without that direct experience.
However, I can confim what I know from my own experience of practicing TM regularly for over 20 years around the world, and of teaching it for over 12 years in the UK.  It works, on all levels.

Cheers.

Rob

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[ Edited: 04 September 2007 03:15 PM by Rob2007 ]
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Posted: 04 September 2007 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Some info on Transcendental Meditation (TM)

Rob2007 - 04 September 2007 03:03 PM

Now a group of thousands practicing this TM technique certainly creates a powerful and measurebale effect (as verified by US governmenatal scientists while studying the effects on the Washington DC crime reduction study).  TM isnt a “supernatural” crime prevention technique, its completely natural and well documented in hundreds of studies…  e.g…
“Integrated brain functioning through TM” 
http://home.swipnet.se/tmdoctors/braindev.htm

This URL has nothing to do with the claim that relaxing your brain will help prevent crime.

I also note that physics professor Robert Park has a little info about Transcendental Meditation (TM) and John Hagelin in his book Voodoo Science, pp. 29-31 for all who are interested. Here are some quotes:

In 1983 [Hagelin] was regarded as a competent theoretical physicist and had a postdoctoral research appointment at the Stanford Linear Accelerator; then, in the midst of personal problems, he simply vanished, reappearing a year later as chairman of the Physics Department at Maharishi International University in Fairfield, Iowa. ...

Hagelin explained that the Project to Reduce Violent Crime was “a scientific demonstration that will provide proof of a unified superstring field.” Superstring theory is an abstract and highly speculative physical theory that attempts to connect all the forces of nature. According to Hagelin, one such force is a collective consciousness that can be accessed by TM. A superstring field, generated by many minds meditating in unison, would radiate throughout the community, reducing stress and spreading tranquility. ...

As promised, Hagelin was back a year later with a fifty-five-page report of the results of the project. It was a clinic in data distortion. A beaming Hagelin announced at a press conference that, during the period of the experiment, violent crime had been reduced by a remarkable 18 percent. “An eighteen percent reduction compared to what?” a puzzled reporter from the Washington Post asked, recalling the dreadful murder rampage of the summer of ‘93 [when the Project to Reduce Violent Crime took place]. Compared to what it would have been if the meditators had not been meditating, Hagelin responded patiently. “But how could you know what the rate would have been?” the reporter persisted. That had been arrived at, Hagelin responded with just a trace of irritation, by means of a “scientifically rigorous time-series analysis” that included not only crime data but such factors as weather and fluctuations in Earth’s magnetic field.

...

All of this had been carefully scrutinized by an “independent scientific review board,” several of whose members were present at the press conference. Hagelin was clearly irritated when I asked how many of the “independent” review board members practiced TM. “Some members of the review board have had previous experience with TM,” he replied, struggling to retain some trace of his smile. He lost the struggle when I insisted on polling the members of the scientific review board. They were all followers of the Maharishi.

...

This was pseudoscience: all the talk of “string theory” and “consciousness fields” and “time-series analysis,” was meant to give the appearance of science.

Rob2007 - 04 September 2007 03:03 PM

  For the skeptics:  these arent modern new theories, they are recorded in ancient Vedic texts (by Vedic ‘scientists’) over three thousand years ago, and yet are backed by modern EEG studies etc for over 30 years.

This stuff has nothing to do with the Vedas. And the Vedas weren’t written by “scientists”. It’s the same nonsense that we hear from Biblical literalists who claim to find all sorts of justifications for modern science in the Bible. Had the science been different, they’d be claiming to find the other things there.

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Posted: 04 September 2007 04:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Doug’s right.  Hagelianism is one thing, the Vedas are another.  Hagelianism deal with idealism and realism (to make a long story short) and there are no Vedic scientist.  There are Vedic scholars though and none of what you said has to do with the Vedics.  Whoever is feeding you this needs to borrow my copy of the Vedas, which consists of the Gitas and the Upanisads.  The Rig Vedic has prayers and hymns.  There is no string theory or consciousness fields or anything else like that in them.

Here’s a good place to start if you don’t have a copy:  http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm  and here is the Gita: http://www.atmajyoti.org/spirwrit_hinduism.asp  If you find it what you are talking about, please let us know.

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Posted: 04 September 2007 04:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Mriana - 04 September 2007 04:22 PM

Doug’s right.

tell me something else I dont know.

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Posted: 04 September 2007 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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LOL  Ok then, I agree with Doug, but you have already figured that out and then some. wink

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Posted: 04 September 2007 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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This stuff has nothing to do with the Vedas. And the Vedas weren’t written by “scientists”....

Hi again Doug.
Just to point out that youve already made several claims on this thread which I successfully countered with valid scientiific references and studies; and in your previous post you claimed that TM was simply a breathing technique, which I pointed out was not true.  The published scientific study which I then referred you to was simply to show how coherence is increased in the brain during TM, and on a wider scale, during the group practice of TM, as in the Washington DC crime study.

You are of course welcome to your opinions. But surely your not an authority on the vedas as well, are you?
If you were you’d know that the Vedas were never ‘written’ down back then, they were essentially an oral tradition, a science of sound and consciousness (see the connection?).  And because the Vedas were a science, that is why I used the term ‘scientists’ to refer to its proponents.  BTW.  I’m not into religion. I mentioned the Vedas simply as a historical source from which TM, Ayurveda, and other insights into mind, matter and conciousness were originally derived

I did ask you what your own particular area of expertise was, and what qualifications you had to be so damning and certain in some of your opinions, but you declined to answer.  Instead you then produced some text from a book about Hagelin, which as far as I could tell was just tittle-tattle gossip, with little or no scientific basis. The Internet is full of such gossip and negative talk, which we can all find if pushed. But the bottom line is, the Washington DC crime study, which was led by Hagelin, was indeed a valid published scientific experiment, which was monitored by US-goverment scientists and shown to be statistically significant in reducing crime by over 20%.  Furthermore, The D.C. crime study was also published in the peer-reviewed journal, Social Indicators Research.
I could also site hundreds of other such studies on TM and reduction of crime rates,  TM and health etc (many published in scientific journals)  if you have the time,  but for now I’ll leave it at that.

Cheers.

Rob

[ Edited: 04 September 2007 06:40 PM by Rob2007 ]
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Posted: 04 September 2007 06:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Rob2007 - 04 September 2007 06:21 PM

Just to point out that youve already made several claims on this thread which I successfully countered with valid scientiific references and studies;

Hello Rob,

You haven’t successfully countered a single argument I’ve provided. Indeed, all I see are irrelevant URLs and citations of names of some pseudoscientists who may or may not support the theory of consciousness by quantum microtubules.

Rob2007 - 04 September 2007 06:21 PM

and in your previous post you claimed that TM was simply a breathing technique, which I pointed out was not true. 

I claimed that meditation was a breathing technique. You are of course right that there are some forms of meditation that are basically versions of guided visualization. But this is entirely irrelevant to the issues we’re arguing about.

Rob2007 - 04 September 2007 06:21 PM

The published scientific study which I then referred you to was simply to show how coherence is increased in the brain during TM, and on a wider scale, during the group practice of TM, as in the Washington DC crime study.

... also irrelevant.

Rob2007 - 04 September 2007 06:21 PM

You are of course welcome to your opinions. But surely your not an authority on the vedas as well, are you?
If you were you’d know that the Vedas were never ‘written’ down back then, they were essentially an oral tradition, a science of sound and consciousness (see the connection?).  And because the Vedas were a science, that is why I used the term ‘scientists’ to refer to its proponents.  BTW.  I’m not into religion. I mentioned the Vedas simply as a historical source from which TM, Ayurveda, and other insights into mind, matter and conciousness were derived

I actually did a minor in Sanskrit and South Asian religions while doing my Ph.D. in philosophy. (This is entirely irrelevant as well, but since you seem to be interested ...) I am not an expert in the Vedas, but have read translations of many of the Vedic texts. Yes, of course they were likely an oral tradition for centuries before being written down. But once again this is irrelevant to the point. They were never a “science of sound and consciousness”. They were—and are—a group of religious texts, including hymns to the gods, chants, and sacrificial rituals. They are, of course, interesting for historical reasons as are all these ancient texts. However they have no bearing on any scientific issues of today.

Rob2007 - 04 September 2007 06:21 PM

I did ask you what your own particular area of expertise was, and what qualifications you had to be so damning and certain in some of your opinions, but you declined to answer.  Instead you then produced some text from a (newspaper?) article about Hagelin, which as far as I could tell was just tittle-tattle gossip, with little or no scientific basis.

Actually, if you reread my post you will see it is from the book [i[]Voodoo Science by Robert Park, who is Professor of Physics and former Chairman of the Physics Department at the University of Maryland. As opposed to all the other stuff we discussed before, Park’s points are directly relevant.

Rob2007 - 04 September 2007 06:21 PM

The Internet is full of such gossip and negative talk, which we can all find if pushed. But the bottom line is, the Washington DC crime study, which was led by Hagelin, was indeed a valid published scientific experiment, which was monitored by US-goverment scientists and shown to be statistcally significant in reducing crime by over 20%.  Furthermore, The D.C. crime study was also published in the peer-reviewed journal, Social Indicators Research.
I could also site hundreds of other such studies on TM and reduction of crime rates if you have the time (many published in leading scientific journals)  but for now I’ll leave it at that.

Perhaps you could provide us all with copies of these articles. Park says the experiment was monitored by acolytes of the Maharishi, not by “US government scientists”.

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Posted: 04 September 2007 07:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Rob2007 - 04 September 2007 06:21 PM

This stuff has nothing to do with the Vedas. And the Vedas weren’t written by “scientists”....

You are of course welcome to your opinions. But surely your not an authority on the vedas as well, are you?
If you were you’d know that the Vedas were never ‘written’ down back then, they were essentially an oral tradition, a science of sound and consciousness (see the connection?).  And because the Vedas were a science, that is why I used the term ‘scientists’ to refer to its proponents.  BTW.  I’m not into religion. I mentioned the Vedas simply as a historical source from which TM, Ayurveda, and other insights into mind, matter and conciousness were originally derived

You know, Rob, I don’t think you know much about the Vedas.  I don’t consider myself an authority, but I have studied them and I am studying them.  There is no science in them and just because they were passed down orally for a while, before being written in Sanskrit, just like every other religion on this planet (except maybe Islam), does not make it science.  The Vedas were never a science, but rather a collection of stories, just as the Christian Bible is.  I’m wondering if you have actually read them, but I am also curious about the articles you mentioned too.

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Posted: 04 September 2007 07:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Hello Rob,
You haven’t successfully countered a single argument I’ve provided. Indeed, all I see are irrelevant URLs and citations of names of some pseudoscientists who may or may not support the theory of consciousness by quantum microtubules.

I think you see what you want to see, Doug.  But labelling an award-winning physicist as a ‘pseudoscientist’ is a bit rich, especially coming from a philosopher wink

I claimed that meditation was a breathing technique. You are of course right that there are some forms of meditation that are basically versions of guided visualization. But this is entirely irrelevant to the issues we’re arguing about.

I dont see it as irrelevant, Doug.  It seems perfectly valid to me - since our discussion had by then moved on to the issue of mind, consciousness and scientific research.  But I dont know where you got the idea of ‘guided visualization’ from.  I certainly never mentioned that term at all, and Ive certainly never heard of it before.

[The Vedas] were never a “science of sound and consciousness”. They were—and are—a group of religious texts, including hymns to the gods, chants, and sacrificial rituals. They are, of course, interesting for historical reasons as are all these ancient texts. However they have no bearing on any scientific issues of today.

Taken at surface value, yes: the Vedas do appear to be a group of religious texts, but they are in fact much more subtle and comprehensive than that.  Award winning physicist Hagelin claims that:...

“The Vedic tradition includes detailed information on a wide range of topics—from astronomy to music, architecture to health care, administration to economy. But it is all based on the knowledge of consciousness—including technologies of consciousness, and evolution to highest state of consciousness”.
On the other hand we have yourself (Doug) claiming that the Vedas “were never a science of sound and consciousness [and] they have no bearing on any scientific issues of today”.  Well, you could be right Doug, and you may well have deeper insights into this issue than Ive so far giving you credt for, but somehow I doubt it. 

Perhaps you could provide us all with copies of these articles. Park says the experiment was monitored by acolytes of the Maharishi, not by “US government scientists”.

Doug. I already provided you with a link to the published study, which stated that - “a 27-member *independent* Project Review Board consisting of sociologists and criminologists from leading universities, representatives from the police department and government of the District of Columbia, and civic leaders approved in advance the research protocol for the project and monitored its progress”.  Heres the link again:  http://www.istpp.org/crime_prevention/
(but you will probably just see urls again wink.

When you mention the term “acolytes”, it certainly has negative overtones. This sort of term certainly makes great reading for skeptic bestsellers such as those churned out by Dawkins and Park. But in reality these “acolytes” as you call them, would be fully qualified research scientists like Dr. David Orme-Johnson. Its no surprise that such TM scientists would be part of the research team working on the TM study, because that is what they do professionally (EEG readings, etc). But this does not negate the fact that the study in question was also monitored by independent scientists and observers and was shown to be a statisically significant study published in a leading peer reviewed scientific journal, Social Indicators Research * >
http://springerlink.metapress.com/content/?k=john+hagelin 

Rob

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Extract from Social Indicators Research - an independent peer reviewed journal

Washington DC crime reduction study

Abstract:  This paper reports the results of a prospective experiment in which a group of approximately 4,000 participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi assembled in Washington, D.C., from June 7 to July 30, 1993. It was hypothesized that levels of violent crime in the District of Columbia would fall substantially during the Demonstration Project, as a result of the group’‘s effect of increasing coherence and reducing stress in the collective consciousness of the District. A 27-member Project Review Board comprising independent scientists and leading citizens approved the research protocol and monitored the research process. Weekly crime data was derived from database records provided by the District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department (DCMPD), which are used in the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. Statistical analysis considered the effect of weather variables, daylight, historical crime trends and annual patterns in the District of Columbia, as well as trends in neighboring cities. Consistent with previous research, levels of homicides, rapes and assaults (HRA crimes) correlated with average weekly temperature. Robberies approximately followed an annually recurring cycle. Time series analysis of 1993 data, controlling for temperature, showed that HRA crimes dropped significantly during the Demonstration Project, corresponding with increases in the size of the group; the maximum decrease was 23.3% (p < 2 × 10–9) [24.6% using a longer baseline, with 1988—1993 data (p < 3 × 10–5)], coincident with the peak number of participants in the group during the final week of the assembly. When the same period in each of the five previous years was examined, no significant decreases in HRA crimes were found. Robberies did not decrease significantly. However, a model that jointly estimated the effect of the Demonstration Project on both HRA crimes and robberies showed a significant reduction in violent crimes overall of 15.6% (p = 0.0008).

>>>>
Further analysis showed that the effect of the coherence-creating group on reducing HRA crimes could not be accounted for by additional police staffing. The time series analysis for HRA crimes gave results that are highly robust to alternative model specifications, and showed that the effect of the group size was cumulative and persisted after the Demonstration Project ended. Also, calculation of the steady state gain based on the time series model predicted that a permanent group of 4,000 coherence-creating experts in the District would have a long-term effect of reducing HRA crimes by 48%.
http://springerlink.metapress.com/content/?k=john+hagelin

[ Edited: 04 September 2007 08:32 PM by Rob2007 ]
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Posted: 04 September 2007 08:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Stop Press

A Rebuttal to “Voodoo Science”
by Maxwell Rainforth, Ph.D.

http://www.istpp.org/crime_prevention/voodoo_rebuttal.html

Quotes/extracts”:

“By making these unfounded and defamatory statements against a well-credentialed scientist, Park clearly placed himself outside the bounds of responsible scientific discourse.  Apparently [Park] believes that ideas that do not tally with the current scientific paradigm can be written off without serious consideration…...”

“Park also does not mention that the results were published in a peer-reviewed academic journal. He ought to have been aware of this because his SI article came out over a year after Hagelin’s study…..” 

“Park’s failure to mention any of these facts can be attributed to only two factors, ignorance or bias, neither of which is acceptable from a responsible scientist, particularly one who takes a strong stand”.

“[Park] waves away the evidence and state-of-the-art statistical analysis, proclaiming in his article that “It was a clinic in data manipulation,” with no supporting data or analysis for that assertion, and makes not another comment about it. In his book he uses more direct pejoratives, preferring instead the phrase “data distortion.” He concludes, both in the book and the SI article that: “This was pseudoscience”.  “Technobabble” and “pseudoscience” are loaded words, which the SI editorial guidelines say should be avoided”.

“[Park’s] statements amount to a charge of scientific fraud. In his SI article and the book, Park also tries to insinuate that the researchers made fraudulent scientific claims — repeating the charge of “pseudoscience,” referring to the “experiment” in quotation marks, and again implying that the researchers were so biased that their beliefs were unalterable by the outcomes of the experiment. His statements are an insult to the integrity of the researchers, the Project Review Board, the editors and reviewers of Social Indicators Research, and the District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department’s statistician, who provided the FBI crime data and co-authored the study”.

“When scientists fail to evaluate evidence of scientific studies on their merits they mislead the public about science. As [Park] is a professor at a major university, most lay readers would be likely to take Park’s “expert” opinions at face value. In this regard, his willfully misleading statements are highly irresponsible. Ironically, Park set out to expose deliberate attempts of scientists to mislead non-experts. In attempting to label Hagelin’s research as an example of scientific misconduct, his book and SI article merely provide a further example of such scientific deception of an unfortunately common type: misguided attacks on novel scientific theories based on blind disregard of evidence.

“Park’s brouhaha about the murder rate is to distract the reader’s attention from the main issue: whether a group of people practicing meditation achieved a reduction in violent crime”.

Main article (extract)

“The Skeptical Inquirer recently published an article by Robert Park (“Voodoo Science and the Belief Gene” (Park 2000a) which he excerpted from his book, “Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud” (Park 2000b). In his book and his article, Park lampooned the scientific research of Dr. John Hagelin and collaborators (Hagelin 1994, 1999), myself included. Based on 41 previous studies, we predicted publicly that a large group practicing the Transcendental Meditation program would lower violent crime levels in Washington, DC, by reducing stress and tension in society. During the 8-week experiment in the summer of 1993, violent crimes against the person (homicides, rapes, and assaults) decreased by 23% and closely tracked the rise in the number of participating meditators. The results were published in Social Indicators Research, a respected, peer-reviewed, scientific journal (Hagelin 1999).

Park charges Hagelin and colleagues with “pseudoscience,” but this very serious allegation of scientific misconduct is based on a critique that is superficial, highly polemical, and seriously flawed. Park abstains from any serious consideration of the study data and the appropriateness of the statistical methodology. Neither his book nor his article contains a single statistic, and they betray no evidence that he read either the initial research report (Hagelin 1994) or the published study (Hagelin 1999).
Hagelin’s experiment tested the following hypothesis: that a large group of meditation experts, practicing together, can reduce stress and tension in the social atmosphere, and thus reduce violent crime. Based on many previous studies on the Transcendental Meditation program® (TM), a widely practiced and thoroughly researched method of stress reduction, it was predicted that such a group would produce a measurable calming influence in the city, resulting in reduced “Part I” violent crime, as defined by the FBI. The predicted outcomes of the experiment were announced publicly to the media, and were lodged in advance with a 27-member panel of scientists and civic leaders.

In his book, Park advocates subjecting scientific claims to rigorous testing and carefully scrutinizing scientific evidence. He explains that science is supposed to show the way to resolving controversy, by taking recourse to experimentation. Despite his lip service to the cause of objective science, Park appears to feel the hypothesis of Hagelin’s study is ridiculous on its face, and that no serious investigation of the claim is necessary. Although this notion is not directly expressed in the SI article, it is explicitly stated in Park’s book. There, in the context of dismissing Hagelin’s study, Park quotes H.L. Mencken: “The most common of all follies is to believe in the palpably untrue.” In other words, Park maintains that it should have been obvious at the outset that the theory being tested was false, so why bother to examine the evidence? Apparently he believes that ideas that do not tally with the current scientific paradigm can be written off without serious consideration…...”

More….
http://www.istpp.org/crime_prevention/voodoo_rebuttal.html


———

[ Edited: 04 September 2007 09:17 PM by Rob2007 ]
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Posted: 04 September 2007 08:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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narwhol - 03 September 2007 01:14 PM

hmm, some nice animation and well-produced.  I don’t see how the quote at the end links into things though.  And you could have had the “what if I’m wrong” bit spoken by those buddhist guys after you showed their elaborate temples - the inference being that they’ve wasted an awful lot of the lives if they are wrong.  A lot of christians might object to the monkey with the “crown of thorns” image.  To be honest, I’m not altogether sure what you were trying to say with this, but enjoyable enough as an abstract piece.

To get back to the movie, I agree the graphics and animation are nicely done.

The phrase “What if you’re wrong” has strong rhetorical style,
but reminds me of the Lotto ad’s lesson that “you can’t win if you don’t play!”   
Cover your bets a la Pascal—is that the intellectual meat of this video?

Jackson

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Posted: 04 September 2007 09:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Rob, I’m still not sure what that has to do with being IN the Vedic or even having to do with the Vedic.

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Posted: 04 September 2007 11:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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So apparently our man Hagelin is trying to corral thousands of “yogic flyers” for peace.

Check it out HERE, as well as on wikipedia HERE where they say:

The Yogic Flying demonstration was presented at a press conference at the Washington, DC Press Club by physicist and Natural Law Party Presidential candidate John Hagelin. Hagelin had called the press conference to offer help in ending the war in Kosovo by sending 7000 yogic flyers to create positive coherence in the violence-torn country. Proponents of Yogic Flying claim that world peace and many other social and environmental benefits can be generated by having at least seven thousand yogic flyers around the world hopping at the same time. This is how [Robert] Park described the demonstration:

Mattresses were spread right there on the floor, and 12 fit-looking young guys seated themselves in the lotus position. The audience was cautioned to make no sound as they meditated. After a few minutes, one of them suddenly levitated. Well, he didn’t exactly float, mind you, just sort of popped up a couple of inches and thumped back down. Then another levitated, and another, till the scene looked like corn popping. There was nothing to suggest they didn’t follow parabolic trajectories. My guess is they were suddenly contracting their gluteus maximus. It must be hard work. They were soon panting heavily.

I must say, this is all pretty hilarious.

You can see photos of the “yogic flyers” HERE.

HERE we read that “Up to 3,000 Yogic Flyers, trained in the advanced Transcendental Meditation®-Sidhi method of meditation known as Yogic Flying, have already gathered at two of the Maharishi’s campuses in central India. Up to 6,000 more are currently being called into action, with an eventual goal of assembling 40,000 Yogic Flyers.” The point? “[T]o end terrorism and war forever.”

That, in October, 2001. Looks like they didn’t effect the Iraq campaign, somehow. Of course:

“With 8,000 we can have an impact, but it won’t be enough to deal with suicidal terrorists,” says Hagelin, who teaches at the Maharishi University of Management in Fairfield, Iowa. “We’ve multiplied the minimum number by five to arrive at 40,000. It’s a safety factor.”

Good that they thought of the safety factor there. Oof. Wouldn’t want too few yogic hoppers.

It gets better:

HERE (29 Oct, 2006) Hagelin predicts that his yogic hoppers will cause:

• a surge in the bull Dow market towards 15,000

• a drop in oil prices to below $45 a barrel

• falling unemployment rates

• rising consumer and investor confidence

• a 20% drop nationwide in violent crime

• a peaceful resolution of the stand-offs with North Korea and Iran, and a dramatic reduction in violence in Iraq

• and of greatest interest to the Republicans and Democrats: the party that wins the November elections will be in a position to hold onto power “indefinitely”

Indefinitely!

HERE Hagelin says his yogic hoppers were responsible for the Dow Jones “soar[ing] past 13,300” in May, 2007. The headline yells, “Record-Breaking Surge Due to Group of 1800 Advanced Meditators, New Research Shows”

In 2006 we read of THIS article, that tells us “Group of 400 Yogic Flyers Established in Holland— Creating Coherent Collective Consciousness and Raising the Nation to Invincibility”.

Invincibility, mind you! For Holland!

What about the rest of us? Fortunately, it continues, “Similar Groups Are Being Established in Every Country to Make Every Nation Invincible”

Well, that’s a relief!

And what of Dr. Hagelin? It appears he is being set up by the Maharishi himself as world dictator. Just keep reading down the article:

“Dr. Hagelin will administer the world in permanent peace”

Maharishi offered high praise for Dr. John Hagelin, world-renowned quantum physicist, President of the US Peace Government, and Minister of Science and Technology of the Global Country of World Peace. “Dr. Hagelin is an enlightened scientist with deep insight into the knowledge and technology of Total Natural Law—with the ability to achieve whatever he wants to achieve. And what Dr. Hagelin wants to achieve as a ruler is: all good to everyone, and non-good to no one,” Maharishi said.

Maharishi added that ever since Dr. Hagelin inaugurated the World Capital of Peace in the Brahmasthan of America a few weeks ago, the “fortune-creating” qualities of Natural Law have awakened in the collective consciousness of America and the world. “A beautiful, fortune-creating destiny for the whole of mankind is quietly being designed by Total Natural Law—the Constitution of the Universe—which administers the infinite diversity of the universe with perfect order. Dr. Hagelin will soon administer the world in perpetual peace,” Maharishi said.

I swear, you can’t make this stuff up.

[ Edited: 04 September 2007 11:16 PM by dougsmith ]
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Doug

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Posted: 05 September 2007 06:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Doug wrote:
“Hagelin says his yogic hoppers were responsible for the Dow Jones “soar[ing] past 13,300” in May, 2007. The headline yells, “Record-Breaking Surge Due to Group of 1800 Advanced Meditators, New Research Shows”

Good morning Doug.
I’m glad to see you mentioned the Dow Jones effect. This is actually well documented in numerous scientific studies on the group effects of TM.  Its been around for years**.  It was also a parameter in the published research paper on the Washington DC study that I posted on this thread yesterday.
The basic premise is really very simple to grasp: namely, that stress levels in society have a marked effect on consumer confidence - and hence on the Dow Jones index\stocks and shares etc.
We are all familiar with the pattern:  a conflict abroad leads to fear in society, which leads to a surge in oil prices. So its no surprise then to find that the Dow will fluctuate in tune with the well documented group effect of TM on society** as stress levels in a country reduce due to TM group practice.

As you rightly pointed out, groups of yogic flyers are indeed found in large groups in various parts of the world. But again, this is no surprise, as it was mentioned in two of the scientific articles I posted yesterday ..and ineed I myself practice yogic flying (advanced TM technique), which I also mentioned to you yesterday when I said I was one of the 4,000 people in the group in Washington DC study in 1993. 

You obviously seem to delight in the fact that yogic flying groups exist at all, and that they werent able to prevent the war in Iraq. But perhaps keep in mind that the prevention or reduction of such wars and crime etc via TM group practice, as documented in the famous published study in The Journal of Conflict Resolution**, is dependent on the size of the TM group. The fact that there werent enough TMers in one group at that time near Iraq, or in the USA, to actually quell or stop the war, doesnt detract from the published scientific evidence on the efficacy of TM to reduce or even stop wars and violence in society >

Sample published research papers on yogic flying to reduce crime and war

*** Journal of Conflict Resolution, Dec. 1988, Vol.32, #4, pp 776-812
International Peace Project in the Middle East
Extract: “Increases in the size of the group had a statistically significant effect in the predicted direction
on the individual variables and on all composite quality-of -life indices”.
http://tmyogicflying.org/wpeacea.htm#middle

Psychology, Crime, and Law (1996), Vol. 2, PP. 165-174…...
Reduced Crime in Merseyside, England Including the City of Liverpool
http://tmyogicflying.org/wpeacea.htm#middle

** Social Indicators Research, 47: 153-201, 1999
Results of the National Demonstration Project,”
http://tmyogicflying.org/wpeacea.htm#washington
I can fully understand your skeptisim, Doug. Yogic flying sure sounds weird!!! smile ..and I’m sure I’d be skeptical if I were in your shoes. But I would like to think I’d be a little more open-minded and scientific about it, especially once I saw the peer reviewed research published in well-respected journals.  So what if its weird? if its works, fine. This is the 21st century. What are our alternatives to a more peaceful society and world? another George W Bush leader?  Surely we should be looking at every peaceful means to get our world and society out of the terrible mess of wars and crime. Or at least not to pour scorn on the concept.

Yesterday you requested the papers and further info on the Washington DC study, which I provided. I also included extracts from the Rebuttal to “Voodoo Science”
by Maxwell Rainforth, Ph.D.
http://www.istpp.org/crime_prevention/voodoo_rebuttal.html  ....

This rebuttal clearly shows the many errors of Park’s analysis of the DC study, and his unwarranted “pseduoscience” attack on an award winning scientist like Hagelin.  The rebuttal goes on to say that “Park clearly placed himself outside the bounds of responsible scientific discourse”, and added:- “Apparently [Park] believes that ideas that do not tally with the current scientific paradigm can be written off without serious consideration.”

I’m sorry to say you have fallen into exactly the same trap as Park, Doug. Not only did you fail to make any comment on this thread to the rebuttal of Park, or provide any scientific evidence to the contrary. But you then chose a different tack and attempted to lampoon and discredit Hagelin and the various TM programmes and projects he is involved in.  Like Park you obviously believe that ideas that do not tally with the current scientific paradigm can be written off without serious consideration.
...which is sad and dissapointing considering you are a senior member on this website/forum, which bills itself as: “The Center for Enquiry - A Global Federation Committed to Science, Reason, Free Inquiry, Secularism, and Planetary Ethics”.

But as I said earlier, “Time will tell…”.
Meanwhile, we will obviously have to agree to differ on this topic.

Best wishes to you and the other members.

Rob

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[ Edited: 05 September 2007 07:32 AM by Rob2007 ]
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