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Why I believe the Bible teaches universal salvation
Posted: 11 September 2007 12:11 PM   [ Ignore ]
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The people who want to keep believing that the Bible proves that everyone deserves to suffer forever in hell just because they were born into this world, or because they don’t make the “right” choice before it’s “too late,” or that God created beings with a will so strong that they can irreversibly choose themselves into a state of eternal torment - these people will keep believing it because they want to.

But people who want to believe that the Bible nowhere supports such a concept of God will examine the evidence contained in HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE at http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html

And also here
Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,

http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html

http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html

copy and paste into address bar if necessary

and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of http://www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page
at http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

and the many entries at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
show just how much this information is helping people.

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-68), and it gives me great joy to keep learning every day that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 68

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Posted: 11 September 2007 12:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Er, but why believe that the Bible is anything much more than an old book of quasi-historical fables? What about the Iliad? The Odyssey? Popol Vuh? The Upanishads? The Mahabharata? The Ramayana? The Norse Sagas? Etc., etc.? Are they all equally credible in your eyes?

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Posted: 11 September 2007 12:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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I guess that it doesn’t really matter what is credible “in my eyes.”
My info is only for people who, for whatever reasons, feel constrained to regard the Bible as “the word of God.”
These particular people are frequently glad to learn that the Bible does not support the concept of an “endless-hell” god.
There may be surfers, or maybe even members of this forum who would appreciate knowing about this information.
I hope you don’t mind my using this forum to let them know about it. grin

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Posted: 11 September 2007 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Far be for me to tell anyone how to find help from hard times.  I hope you are happy, rodgertutt.

However, the teachings of the New Testament are self-fulfilling.  It says that people are sinners.  That we are faulty and flawed and are tempted by evil.  Then, yippee, it gives us the cure: believe in Jesus and God and you will be saved!!  Hallelluyah!!

But what if we are not sinners?  I’m not a sinner.  I haven’t committed murder or some other horrible crime.  I’m a normal human being.  I’m not perfect (but as my friend Helen says, all humans are imperfect—so we are perfect in our imperfectability!).  I make mistakes and try to fix them.  I don’t need some book to tell me how to “fix what ain’t broke.”

You may have had hard times, but you are not a sinner.  You don’t need to be saved.  You are perfect just the way you are.  Try thinking about that, and you will be free.

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Posted: 11 September 2007 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Roger, you may be confused.  This forum is mainly populated by secular humanists.  That is, we don’t believe the bible is the word of a god, in fact, most of us either don’t believe in the existence of a god or are agnostic.  So, you may want to find a website that has more members amenable to your preaching.

Occam

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Posted: 11 September 2007 12:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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The whole idea of original sin makes no moral sense anyhow. I am not responsible for the errors of my parents, nor are the supposed “children of Adam” responsible for whatever wrong Adam did. Indeed, it would be immoral of God to punish children for the (supposed) crimes of their parents.

... there is the additional issue that eating from this tree isn’t sinful, that it was, in fact, sinful of God to have left it there as temptation. It was sinful of God to have allowed the snake into the garden as well, knowing what he did.

Of course this is all fable. But my point is that, taken literally, it is a nonsensical fable.

So even taken as a fable, the whole origin of Christianity (as salvation from this original sin) is nonsensical.

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Posted: 11 September 2007 01:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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I don’t attend religious services (shock!! gasp!!  LOL ).  The last one I went to was for my step-mother’s funeral.  She was nominally Catholic, but her mom is a believer, so the service was in a Catholic church.  Whatever.  My step-mom was a wonderful person.  She loved my Dad.  She was a great mother and grandmother.  No one loved her grandchildren more.  She was a fabulous step-mother (I have some expertise in this area!).

The point is this: the priest, who didn’t know her, kept saying that, although she was a sinner, God loved her anyway and would surely greet her in Heaven.  Gag!!  She wasn’t a sinner.  She was a loving woman.  Not perfect, but everything she did, she did from love.  The stupid priest defamed her by assuming that, just because she was human, that she was a sinner.  It was all I could do not to run up there and slap his face!!

People who walk around thinking they are sinners and need to spend hours, days, and years begging God not to smote them for their “tresspasses”, do real harm to themselves.  Unless you are Hitler or Osama Bin Laden, you aren’t a sinner.  Cut yourself some slack!

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Posted: 13 September 2007 08:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Rodger you are 68 and you haven’t learned the truth from fiction yet? Hmmm, I think you have a lot of catching up to do.

If of course you are having fun by making fun of religion or starting a new topic on the good points of the fictional works called the “Holy Bible” then of course all of us will love to debate with you, but if you are here in hopes one or two people posting on these forums will convert to your way of thinking let me invite you to read excerpts of my “holy book” the Q’R'Beth under the title of “How to start your own religion” under the category of Religion because my book is also fiction but makes just as much sense as your “holy” book and at least there is little to debate about my book because I admit it is fictional but showing others how it is so easy to influence others into believing the absurd by producing a works that seems “possible” to those who can not separate fiction from non-fiction.

If you will admit yours is too then we can open a good debate here but if not I can’t see the point or understand what you had in mind when you posted your links.

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In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holely Goat I bring the truth

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Posted: 13 September 2007 10:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Hey, Goat, I think we lost our guy.  He has been suspiciously quiet as soon as us rowdy iconoclasts let loose!!

Too bad.  I was in the mood for a debate. cool smile

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Posted: 15 September 2007 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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“the word of God.”

And he was a poor speller too as dog is spelled d-o-g not g-o-d. He had it spelled backward.

I love it when theist come aboard as Love to poke fun of the religion.

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In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holely Goat I bring the truth

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Posted: 17 September 2007 10:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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rodgertutt - 11 September 2007 12:11 PM

The people who want to keep believing that the Bible proves that everyone deserves to suffer forever in hell just because they were born into this world, or because they don’t make the “right” choice before it’s “too late,” or that God created beings with a will so strong that they can irreversibly choose themselves into a state of eternal torment - these people will keep believing it because they want to.

Unfortunately, “these people” include the vast majority of Christians from my experience.  Why don’t you go to Planetwisdom.com and try to persuade them?  I guarantee they will come down on you like a ton of bricks.  wink

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Posted: 17 September 2007 11:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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dougsmith - 11 September 2007 12:17 PM

Er, but why believe that the Bible is anything much more than an old book of quasi-historical fables? What about the Iliad? The Odyssey? Popol Vuh? The Upanishads? The Mahabharata? The Ramayana? The Norse Sagas? Etc., etc.? Are they all equally credible in your eyes?

you left out The Very Hungry Caterpillar

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Posted: 17 September 2007 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Roger, original sin is a myth brought about by those in authority who wanted to control the masses with guilt.  Also, the Bible is NOT the word of God, it’s the word of man- Humans wrote it and it was NOT divinely inspired.  I suggest you read John Shelby Spong’s “Why Christianity Must Change or Die”.  Even he explains this much more clearly than I ever could.

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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 17 September 2007 04:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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I’m laughing at the recent posts!!  Too bad our friendly neioghborhood Christian seems to have flown the coop.  I happen to like the Very Hungry Caterpillar.  And Dr. Spong’s work is excellent.

A former student of mine just did a study comparing different myths from many different religious traditions, from Old Testament to Klingon.  It showed the similarities and ended with the statement that myths tell us more about the people who created them than anything else.  It was nice to see the young people (he’s 13) getting into the act!!

Hey, Rodger, we’re waiting!!!!

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Posted: 17 September 2007 05:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Dr. Spong?  I’ve never heard him call that before.  LOL  Yes, his work is good and I find it tolerable and even enjoyable.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 17 September 2007 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Happy Humanist, you mean Stovokor is a myth?  I’m crushed.  downer  tongue rolleye

Occam

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