godblessgeorgecarlin - 14 October 2007 05:10 AM

Now that is a science class

What I left out, conveniently, above was Baudrillard’s perspective towards striving for that kind of absolute knowledge you referred to.  He actually criticized it as being deceptive for reasons I’ll have to go back and read about.  By no means were you wrong to have wanted to do everything you could to figure out what was in the box, though.  I remember high school being so much extraneous work, at least they could have let you have -that- satisfaction for some of it!  I want to say all of this amounts to the majority of people not just freaking being humble and honest about what they can and can’t know at any point in time.

Hah, I’m a great example of that!  I’m surprised no scholar here has shown up and trashed everything I said above!

There might have been some temporary satisfaction in opening the box and seeing how well or how badly our science did but it would have been a superficial satisfaction.  It was a far, far, far greater lesson to learn that in the real world there is no ‘God given’ answer book, there is no ultimate authority to tell us the absolutely true - there is just us and the mental tools we bring to the question.

Where did you go to school JohnHuey?  I wish I was as geographically fortunate.

retrospy - 15 October 2007 10:12 AM

Where did you go to school JohnHuey?  I wish I was as geographically fortunate.

I went to high school in Bakersfield, California back in the late 60s.  However, I do believe that there are many many science classes throughout the US that make use of the Black Box experiment (BBE).  I’ve seen Black Box kits for sale at educational supply outlets.  The deep philosophical lesson that I gleaned from the experience is, I think, more of an unintentional or perhaps a ‘stealth’ lesson.  On the surface, the BBE is just about using the scientific process to solve a problem.  The connection to the question of scientific knowledge and ‘ultimate’ reality, comes later and usually as a sudden insight that pops into your mind as you’re watching the sun set into the Pacific Ocean.

retrospy - 15 October 2007 10:12 AM

Where did you go to school JohnHuey?  I wish I was as geographically fortunate.

And BTW, absolutely no one, who has spent any time in Bakersfield, would call it geographically fortunate.  It is in the armpit of California.  The best that can be said is it is a great place to be FROM.

JohnHuey - 15 October 2007 04:37 PM

retrospy - 15 October 2007 10:12 AM

Where did you go to school JohnHuey?  I wish I was as geographically fortunate.

And BTW, absolutely no one, who has spent any time in Bakersfield, would call it geographically fortunate.  It is in the armpit of California.  The best that can be said is it is a great place to be FROM.

Hey, any place that is the home of Buck Owens and Dwight Yoakum ain’t all bad, although I’d never live in Bakersfield.

godblessgeorgecarlin - 11 October 2007 03:28 AM

Before I say anything else I just want to let you guys know that I am scared to death of talking about postmodernism.  My brain has trouble processing most works of literature, let alone most of the lit that falls under this heading.  (translation:  PLEASE feel free to correct and question me on this subject!!)  But, I too am really curious about it.  I don’t “believe in it”. (I thought it was a critical theory, not a positivist one?)  I guess I believe in it as much as I believe in the conditions that it arose out of, and I understand why it arose but not necessarily the cultural forces which further shaped most of the literature, which indeed seemed to be more along the lines of works of art in several cases.

On this point, the only literature in which I think postmodenism delivers is Dylan Thomas.  In this particular case, he seems to write the poem and then cut up each sentence and place the words of them back together in a different order.  In his case, it reads much more satisfactorily than any other arrangement of those words could.  And this is undeniably postmodern.

As to the philosophy, the whole thing came about largely through a massive over-extrapolation from scant anthropolgical data and unlikely parables.  It was an almost punk attempt at being slightly anarchic and muddying the waters a little.  However, if you want to knock it down it’s easy: just apply it to itself as a metaphilosophy and it actually says that the actual words in which it expresses itself don’t mean anything so you’d be wasting your time agreeing with it because it might be talking about something entirely different than the thing you believe yourself to be agreeing with.  Ergo, you can make up your own entirely contrary philosophy and say that this is the same philosophy.

Neat!  Thanks, and now I’ve got one more author to add to my amazon list.  I guess my jury is still out on Eco and Baudrillard and the hyperreal landscape.  It probably hit home a little more for me, because I’ve got so many beefs with being raised around the media… (...in case you couldn’t tell!)  Anyway, for that reason and others it was much more convincing for me.

Three cheers for thread resurrection!

I’m re-reading Simulacra and Simulation and realized that my characterization of the hyperreal was close but damn wrong.  Maybe I’ll be inspired to post something about it later on.  It’s been about a year since I first looked at this book, and now I’m amazed at how much better I am understanding it.  I think I need several more years to really get what he’s saying, though.

Still, it is amazing how concepts sink in over a long period of time when we’re not looking.

godblessgeorgecarlin - 18 October 2007 09:45 PM

Three cheers for thread resurrection!

I’m re-reading Simulacra and Simulation and realized that my characterization of the hyperreal was close but damn wrong.  Maybe I’ll be inspired to post something about it later on.  It’s been about a year since I first looked at this book, and now I’m amazed at how much better I am understanding it.  I think I need several more years to really get what he’s saying, though.

Still, it is amazing how concepts sink in over a long period of time when we’re not looking.

I particularly felt that way in college - continuously eating but never having the time to digest.  For politeness sake, I won’t push this metaphor any further.