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Will a secular nation speak out against the muslim led genocide against christians in Armenia?...
Posted: 11 October 2007 11:35 PM   [ Ignore ]
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... or does a christian president need Turkey’s assistance in order to advance his agenda in the Middle East?

Judge for yourself…
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/10/europe/10turkey.php

The whole thing strikes me as an elaborate congressional strategy.  What do you all think?

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Posted: 12 October 2007 09:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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its sick how we condemn Ahmadinejad for allegedly denying the Jewish Holocaust (he didnt) but the President is opposed to making a symbolic recognition of the Armenian Holocaust.

obviously its all politically motivated. Ahmadinejad is a “bad guy” so we can twist his words (which isnt hard to do considering his stupidity) and condemn him, but Turkey is an important “ally” (meaning we need them for a military presence in the region) so we shouldnt step on their toes (sic).

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Posted: 12 October 2007 10:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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truthaddict - 12 October 2007 09:36 AM

its sick how we condemn Ahmadinejad for allegedly denying the Jewish Holocaust (he didnt) but the President is opposed to making a symbolic recognition of the Armenian Holocaust.

obviously its all politically motivated. Ahmadinejad is a “bad guy” so we can twist his words (which isnt hard to do considering his stupidity) and condemn him, but Turkey is an important “ally” (meaning we need them for a military presence in the region) so we shouldnt step on their toes (sic).

Re. Ahmadinejad: how do you explain THIS then?

Last week, [Ahmadinejad] also expressed doubt about the killing by the Nazis of six million Jews during World War II, but Wednesday was the first occasion when he said in public that the Holocaust was a myth.

“They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets,” Ahmadinejad said in a speech to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan, according to a report on Wednesday from Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting.

“The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets,” he said. “(It) deals very severely with those who deny this myth but does not do anything to those who deny God, religion, and the prophet.”

I’d also suggest reading THIS article.

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Posted: 12 October 2007 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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doug, I suggest reading this.

The Iranian press agency IRNA renders Ahmadinejad on 2005-12-14 as follows: “‘If the Europeans are telling the truth in their claim that they have killed six million Jews in the Holocaust during the World War II - which seems they are right in their claim because they insist on it and arrest and imprison those who oppose it, why the Palestinian nation should pay for the crime. Why have they come to the very heart of the Islamic world and are committing crimes against the dear Palestine using their bombs, rockets, missiles and sanctions.’ [...] ‘If you have committed the crimes so give a piece of your land somewhere in Europe or America and Canada or Alaska to them to set up their own state there.’ [...] Ahmadinejad said some have created a myth on holocaust and hold it even higher than the very belief in religion and prophets [...] The president further said, ‘If your civilization consists of aggression, displacing the oppressed nations, suppressing justice-seeking voices and spreading injustice and poverty for the majority of people on the earth, then we say it out loud that we despise your hollow civilization.’”

there is more but i got to go for now

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Posted: 12 October 2007 11:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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That’s a very heavily edited passage you’ve quoted there. And I’m sure we can trust the Iranian Press Agency to do the fairest translation of the passage. Certainly much fairer than the German government, yep.

I’d suggest reading the article I linked to above, particularly the stuff about the various Holocaust-denial conferences that have been recently sponsored by the Iranian government.

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Posted: 12 October 2007 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Am I really witnessing Holocaust denial denial?

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Posted: 12 October 2007 12:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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doug, youre a master at googling, try looking for the opposite too

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Posted: 12 October 2007 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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doug,

here is an example and from FOX:

On the issue of the Holocaust, Ahmadinejad said more “research” was needed on what took place, but he seemed to acknowledge that it did exist.

“I am not saying that it didn’t happen at all. This is not that judgment that I am passing here,” he said. “Granted this happened, what does it have to do with the Palestinian people? ... Why is it that the Palestinian people are paying the price for an event they had nothing to do with?”

...

Ahmadinejad said he simply wanted more research on the Holocaust, which he said was abused as a justification for Israeli mistreatment of the Palestinians.

“Why is it that the Palestinian people are paying the price for an event they had nothing to do with?” Ahmadinejad asked.

You can find the comments elsewhere. Actually, Juan Cole has written alot about the poor translations and misrepresentations of what Ahmadinejad has been saying and he attributes it to war propaganda.

What it looks like to me is that Ahmadinejad is calling the holocaust a “myth” in how it is used, no that it didn’t happen. He regularly acknowledges that it happens but almost always follows it up with asking why the Palestinians should pay the cost.

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Posted: 12 October 2007 12:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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the columbia transcript

i think the guy is an idiot but i also think we are putting words into his mouth to support our political efforts.

he recognizes it happened, though apparently he wants more “research” into the details. some are insulted by that and think he is challenging the facts. and that may be. but that is not denying it happened.

should we also talk about his “wiping Israel off the map” comment and how that was poorly translated and interpreted? thats another related issue to the point im trying to make

again, my point with this is since he represents an official “enemy” we are quick to demonize him and since Turkey is an ally we are quick to not make an issue. Considering our political agenda this makes since. It falls in line with what Robert Trivers and Huey Newton said about self-deception.

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Posted: 12 October 2007 12:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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You’re quoting a later speech by Ahmadinejad, the one from 2007 at Columbia University. I was quoting a speech he gave in 2005.

Even in the 2007 speech he left himself plenty of weasel-room. From the Fox article you quoted: “On the issue of the Holocaust, Ahmadinejad said more “research” was needed on what took place, but he seemed to acknowledge that it did exist.”

More “research”? To what end?

Just to be absolutely clear here, I agree that the Palestinian situation has nothing to do with the Holocaust. The Palestinians should not be treated unfairly because of it.

But as to whether Ahmadinejad and the Iranian government have been engaged in explicit Holocaust denial, that is incontrovertible.

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Posted: 12 October 2007 12:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Re. the desire for more “research”: this is clearly allowing him the fiction that the facts aren’t in yet. It’s like a creationist in front of a hostile audience saying that “Oh yes, I agree with evolution, but more research is needed.” It’s political spin BS.

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Posted: 12 October 2007 12:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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even if he was weasling out, it doesnt matter. He doesnt deny it, which is what I originally said.

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Posted: 12 October 2007 01:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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And Bush also says “We don’t believe in torture.”. I take it, given your argument, that you’d take him at his word as well.

Ahmadinejad did deny the Holocaust in 2005, and weaseled on it when pressed in 2007 in front of a hostile audience.

Let’s look at the context.

More quotes from the article I linked to above:

Ahmadinejad, himself, sponsored and opened an August 2006 exhibition of cartoons denigrating the Holocaust.

If you want to see some of the results of this exhibition, you can peruse them at your leisure HERE.

Following his September 19, 2006 U.N. General Assembly speech, he granted press availability to representatives of the alternative media, including Michael Collins Piper, a journalist for the extreme right newspaper American Free Press and author of Final Judgment, a book postulating that the Mossad killed President John F. Kennedy. After the conference, a personal friend of Piper, Iranian filmmaker Nader Talebzadeh, introduced him to Ahmadinejad, who actually invited Piper to be his personal guest in Iran. Following his press conference, Ahmadinejad spent half of a 90-minute meeting at the Council on Foreign Relations trying to debunk the Holocaust.

If you want to get an idea of some of Piper’s antisemitic work, you can read a sample HERE. He also apparently supported Mel Gibson’s antisemitic rants, only believing them too mild. See HERE.

Re. the Holocaust denial conference in 2006: Ahmadinejad attended and:

At the conference, participants agreed to establish a world foundation for Holocaust studies and unanimously appointed Mohammad ‘Ali Ramin as its secretary general. An advisor to President Ahmadinejad, Ramin once lived in Germany and is an ardent defender of Holocaust denial.

... note the term “Holocaust studies”. I assume they will be doing this “research” that Ahmadinejad feels we are in such pressing need of.

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Posted: 12 October 2007 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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doug,

did you notice that you dismissed the IRNA quote but only after you cited CNN as a source?

whats the point of the question? look back and see who CNN said was their source? IRNA!!!

and what was up with the “heavily edited” comment? is the pot calling the kettle black or what?

This is just all really funny to me. You cite CNN who cites IRNA but when I cite IRNA - and by the way the differences between what IRNA said and how CNN misrepresented it are quite interesting - you question it as a source. WOW!

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Posted: 12 October 2007 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Stop BSing, truthaddict.

Your argument was that in 2005 Ahmadinejad didn’t deny the Holocaust, based on a heavily edited passage of a speech also separately quoted by CNN and the German government. I provided evidence that he did deny the Holocaust on that occasion and several others as well, both with his own words and by supporting Holocaust deniers.

I wonder why you are in the same couple of days cozying up to Holocaust denial and supporting sophistry about the word “antisemitism”.

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Posted: 12 October 2007 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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im not BSing.

its pretty simple: who did CNN cite as their source and what does the source actually say?

heavily edited? what is up with that charge? dont you think yours is “heavily edited” too? its not as if CNN provided the whole transcript. No, they (heavily) edited out what they didnt see as relevant to the article. I mean, what is the point you are trying to make with this BS rhetoric? what you provided was edited excerpts as was mine. What makes what I provided “heavily edited” and yours not? Because it has this [...]? That is a real weak, lame and moot issue, especially for you, Doug. Actually, considering my source provided more of the comments made I would say your source was more “heavily edited.”

But go back to the issue: who was CNN’s source? IRNA. That is not BSing, thats a fact. It says so in the article.

Now, the source I provided which had more of the comments is slightly different than yours and I think those differences show that he wasnt denying the holocaust. The purpose of his comment was: if it happend in europe then palestinians shouldnt pay the cost.

Yes, he said “if” but that doesnt mean he is saying it didnt happen. Look up above to my comment where I said, “even if he was weasling out.” I wasnt saying that he was weasling out. I dont know what is the term for that but I know there is one. Its like, whether he was weasling out or not is not the point. The point is that he said he doesnt deny it. Likewise, I see the same in his comment. When he says “if this happened in Europe” he is saying: whether it happened or not is not the point. The point is that the palestinians should not pay for it.

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