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Caffeine
Posted: 19 October 2007 09:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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The anti-placebo affect is just as real as the placebo effect. If you tell someone that a pill or procedure will hurt or make them worse, they will tend to feel more pain than if not given these instructions. I remember reading a paper about that awhile back.

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Posted: 19 October 2007 10:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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It even has a name: ‘nocebo’.

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Posted: 19 October 2007 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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GdB - 19 October 2007 10:11 AM

It even has a name: ‘nocebo’.

Thanks! Yes, I was trying and failing to remember that word ...

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Posted: 19 October 2007 05:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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i have two cups of ‘real’ coffe (starbucks or the like) each morning and i can feel the caffeine effect. if i have more caffeine later in the day i find it hard to sleep, also, if i have no coffee i get a bad headache. This is not psychosematic, if often only realise i haven’t had any coffee because of the headache!

hello, my name is Ski, i have been sent to this meeting (of caffeine addicts anon) by my case worker, but I’m not an addict.<murmurs from the group>... no really,  I can give up whenever I want!  (slurp) I am totally in (slurp) control…..really (spills drink)  FCUK, i need some more….to settle my nerves…..but i’m not an addict!

Ski.

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Posted: 19 October 2007 05:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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dougsmith - 19 October 2007 09:32 AM

The anti-placebo affect is just as real as the placebo effect. If you tell someone that a pill or procedure will hurt or make them worse, they will tend to feel more pain than if not given these instructions. I remember reading a paper about that awhile back.

What I experience is diferent. When I take a drug I get into a position like being aware of placebo effect, a kind of thinking like “you won’t me fool with placebo effect”, so I don’t realize of the effect of some drugs, according to my home physician grin

I usually have headaches, I’ve tried without cofee, changing my diet and many things, and they persists. I don’t know what makes them to appear, but they ussually persist after the vast majority of painkillers, except rofecoxib.

Occam, I have a similar symthom with hot and bad ventilated room: I believe they produced me strong headaches. I don’t know if it is true, but I tend to remember cases that support my believe, as usually happens.

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Posted: 19 October 2007 05:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Barto - 19 October 2007 05:20 PM

What I experience is diferent. When I take a drug I get into a position like being aware of placebo effect, a kind of thinking like “you won’t me fool with placebo effect”, so I don’t realize of the effect of some drugs, according to my home physician grin

Well, yes; the effectiveness of all drugs is a matter of some uncertainty, as is the placebo effect itself.

But I’m not sure what your home physician is talking about—if he’s prescribing you drugs that have passed FDA testing (I assume there’s something broadly similar where you live), their effectiveness will have been demonstrated to exceed that of a placebo. So the effect you should be feeling from the drug shouldn’t necessarily have anything to do with a placebo effect.

... although in line with the “nocebo” effect we discussed before, I suppose if you’re dead set that a drug is not going to help you, that might diminish its effectiveness somewhat on illnesses that are somewhat psychological in character. That is, illnesses of stress, pain, etc.

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Posted: 22 October 2007 04:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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dougsmith - 19 October 2007 05:27 PM

Well, yes; the effectiveness of all drugs is a matter of some uncertainty, as is the placebo effect itself.

But I’m not sure what your home physician is talking about—if he’s prescribing you drugs that have passed FDA testing (I assume there’s something broadly similar where you live), their effectiveness will have been demonstrated to exceed that of a placebo. So the effect you should be feeling from the drug shouldn’t necessarily have anything to do with a placebo effect.

... although in line with the “nocebo” effect we discussed before, I suppose if you’re dead set that a drug is not going to help you, that might diminish its effectiveness somewhat on illnesses that are somewhat psychological in character. That is, illnesses of stress, pain, etc.

The drugs are prescribed by my wife (she is a physician). She usually prescribes me non-opioids painkillers (as ibuprofen), which, at the extent I have evaluated, have no influence on my headaches. I have count the time the headaches ussualy last with this painkillers and without them, and I have found no influence.

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Posted: 22 October 2007 04:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Barto - 22 October 2007 04:40 PM

The drugs are prescribed by my wife (she is a physician). She usually prescribes me non-opioids painkillers (as ibuprofen), which, at the extent I have evaluated, have no influence on my headaches. I have count the time the headaches ussualy last with this painkillers and without them, and I have found no influence.

FWIW, ibuprofen usually doesn’t help my headaches either, when I have them. It could be a nocebo effect, but could also be various other things:

(1) NSAIDs have a particular method of action on pain, they also thin the blood. Perhaps your headaches weren’t of the right origin to be helped by that method of action.

(2) Perhaps your headaches were too strong.

(3) Even the most effective drugs do not work on everyone ...

Anyhow, sorry to hear it!

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Posted: 22 October 2007 08:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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I reached the conclusion that my headaches are psycological, maybe I should go to see a psycoanalist, there are a lot over here, to see if it is the edipo complex grin

If it weren’t me, I’d say that I am crazy.

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Posted: 22 October 2007 10:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Ha! I’d suggest a psychiatrist who at least can prescribe medication, or a good psychologist with clinical training rather than a psychoanalyst ... no need to get Freud involved ...

wink

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Posted: 23 October 2007 11:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Maybe it is a bit out off topic, seriously, here we are in the dark about psycology. The Freud theory is the core of every psycology career here, and almost every psychology here is a psychoanalist. It is particulary terrible when you need a psycological treatment (as I ned in the past) and there is not a suitable alternative to choose. As I see it, it is a good example of why we are against the high superstition, we pay their faulty theories with quality of life.

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Posted: 31 October 2007 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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I am a full fledged caffeine junky!  I drink energy drinks and soda almost exclusively. In fact, I’m at work (on break of course) and there is a freshly opened energy drink to the right of my mouse pad. I’ve made efforts in the past to lessen or even eliminate my consumption of caffeine containing products, but it never works.  Why? Because I’m a caffeine junky.  After going through withdrawal, the day always comes when I’m extraordinarily groggy on morning and I stop at the gas station on the way to work and that’s all it takes.  Next thing I know, there are 4 pack cubes of energy drinks (one being chilled in the fridge another warm waiting to be loaded in) and bottles of soda full stocked.  I’ve just come to accept it lately. I have an otherwise healthy diet and exercise semi-regularly at the gym. It’s just this caffeine monkey on my back.

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Posted: 31 October 2007 02:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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AFAIK there is no real downside to caffeine consumption, so long as you can sleep OK and don’t mind having a lot of coffee or energy drinks.

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Posted: 31 October 2007 04:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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dougsmith - 31 October 2007 02:31 PM

AFAIK there is no real downside to caffeine consumption, so long as you can sleep OK and don’t mind having a lot of coffee or energy drinks.

caffeine raises blood pressure as it causes blood vessles to constrict. this causes a greater load on the heart.

Ski.

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Posted: 31 October 2007 04:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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SkiCarver - 31 October 2007 04:43 PM

caffeine raises blood pressure as it causes blood vessles to constrict. this causes a greater load on the heart.

Hmm ... do you have a source for that? I’ve never seen any linkage between caffeine intake and increased risk of heart attack or the like.

Indeed, in THIS 2007 article, the authors found:

Habitual intake of caffeinated beverages provided protection against the risk of heart disease mortality among elderly participants in this prospective epidemiologic analysis.

Further, all I can see on the wiki page HERE is an association of caffeine with upset stomach (due to high acidity) and sleep disorder. And I’ve kept my eye out over the past few years as well ...

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