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Posted: 07 November 2007 09:52 AM   [ Ignore ]
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There’s something about this whole illegal immigration debate that is absolutely insane… Why is it okay for someone who is not supposed to be in America to BE in America? The pro illegal alien argument is : “Because they are already here”. This “logic” seems to be too weak to have avalanched into an amnesty movement. But,… it has.

If I decided to visit Japan because it held some economic perks for me and I faded into that population after my tourist visa expired, I would be a CRIMINAL. And if the Japanese government caught me, slammed my butt on a plane and sent me back to America, why should I be mad? That would be crazy. They, after all, are a sovereign people, able to make and to enforce laws for their country that should be respected globally. Now, if I WERE crazy enough to reside in Japan illegally, I would also attempt to get pregnant in Japan so that my off-spring would then become Japanese nationals and I could get a better foot in the door with the Japanese government (maybe). In-between pregnancies I would support myself by working as a line cook at an area McDonald’s where the manager doesn’t care who he hires. Later, I could come out of hiding and take my children to Japanese health clinics, have them attend Japanese schools, and I would try to get some Japanese welfare in order to support them, myself, and some more children (if I feel like having more children…’cuz I am from a large family in the states). Later, as my loitering in Japan continued, my sons and my daughters could help me over-turn the Japanese government and set up a situation whereby scofflaws like myself (who breed like rabbits) would get amnesty. We would plead, march,cry, tug at the heart strings, and appeal to the basic sense of decency of the Japanese people in order to get what we want. Moving right along with my seditious game plan, we could then mandate the singing of the Star Spangled Banner at Sumo wrestling matches, the flying of the American flag over various Japanese municipalities, more beef and less seafood served in the country, and the destruction of the national identity of the Japanese people in countless other ways. This would ultimately include rewriting the Japanese Constitution.

Also, folks like me certainly aren’t going to start speaking Japanese and we think we can get by without having to do so… We want the Japanese to start translating everything into English because it would be racist and noninclusive of them not to accomodate us. We are human beings! We have rights too, after all! Our consumer yen counts (even though we don’t pay taxes)! So our mantra would become, “We are here! Accept us! Stop being racist! We give so much to Japan! Make us citizens! We earned it!” We would get some well-meaning, but misguided, Japanese citizens to feel sorry for us. They would help us push our cause for amnesty in the Japanese Parliament. And then,… there you have it…veni, vidi, vici.

Sound familiar? The premise that Hispanic illegals are presenting to American citizens is that it is perfectly fine for them not to obey our laws and to live in their own subculture in America. Conversely, we American citizens MUST obey our laws. If we do not, there will be chaos, anarchy, and no more “America” as we envision it to be. This country will be moving towards an unstable, Middle east feel…say, like, Lebanon. This is the exact future these illegals are offering to us. They come into this country ill-prepared to deal with it’s structure and with the expectations of its citizenry. If they want citizenship, they can apply for it legally and come into this country the right way like everyone else. This is not about what suits THEM…

Prospective immigrants from other parts of the world have taken the TOEFL repeatedly and have participated in Green Card raffles repeatedly over the span of YEARS for a chance to immigrate to this country. Many of these people are highly skilled and/or possess PhDs. They have spent a great deal of money on fees and on tests. They have taken the time to fill-out extensive paperwork and have submitted themselves to lengthy background checks. They have become scholars of the Declaration of Independence and know more about America than most natural-born American citizens. And, many of these people are turned down and must patiently try again. Conversely, this country is currently up 12 million (30 million by some accounts) illegals who have no intention of ever assimiliating into American culture whilst they are steadily pushing for their own political, nationalistic, and cultural agendas ( I am told that their Catholic beliefs prevent them from taking the notion of contraception or birth control seriously). Criminal, illiterate, and unwilling (or unable) to learn English, they gift us with the highest rate of of illegitimate births evidenced by any other ethnic group in America to date. Capable of performing only the most menial of tasks, they are not a “value added” people.

Some say that these illegals pay taxes and contribute greatly to the American GDP. I find these claims dubious, at best. If I am “on the run” ; trying to fly under the ICE radar ( not having been issued a proper social security card by the US government), I don’t think I would be waiving around a red flag to the IRS stating,”It is I, Jose! The illegal that crept into your country two years ago who now wants to pay my taxes!” Most likely, these illegals are accepting their income from under the table.(To get a job, illegal immigrants need a Social Security number, and they often “borrow” one.) And, instead of paying money into the American welfare system with their taxes, they are, in fact, “the” major strain upon it by unfairly accessing tax payer supported resources. Meanwhile, their population is booming (with mostly out-of-wedlock births) and I guess their strategy is to multiply and to conquer. And don’t get me started on the voting imbalance brought about by the influx of illegals into some areas of this country, the gangs; the arsonists; the drugs, and the other nasties associated with illegal immigration. If I hear one more illegal immigrant whining about how racist Americans are because someone complained that they have fifteen people shacked up in a two bedroom house, I’ll puke up some refried beans. And, if I hear one more illegal alien sympathizer bleating about how there is enough of this land to “go around” (while their argument increduously skips the fact that this country is NOT a free-for-all where A-N-Y-B-O-D-Y, including Al Qaeda, is free to rush it’s porous borders without consequence), I will not view these people as being very bright.

And, are they needed? Willing to work for less than what the Consumer Price Index warrants, illegals are an economic threat to the American working class because they depress wage rates. There was never a shortage of fast food workers, masons, janitors,trash collectors, maids, or handymen in this country, and I don’t believe that average Americans would be inconvenienced in the least if illegals disappeared from these venues of work. As a matter of fact, our economy would actually have a chance to heal due to the eventual normalization of wages.

So, the question remains: Why do illegals feel that they are above the law and can just stroll (or run) into this country, finance a townhouse and then start working at Taco Bell or digging ditches without a pause? The true motive behind this massive influx of illegals is corporate greed. Big business is profiting handsomely from the exploitation of these minimum wage slaves. Illegals are rushing into this country only because they know that there is plenty of work to be had. Consequently, they are given the false impression that their labor is shoring up the American economy. Truth be told, they are only shoring up the the bank books of the filthy rich. Some of that profit may trickle down into the GDP, but, it is, nevertheless, cancelled out by the taxes these illegals owe this country. They will never be “in the black” with America as long as they keep reproducing at such a God awful rate and, therefore, fleecing US citizens out of our tax dollars as they access services and funds not intended for them. Indeed, they are not the saviors of this society, but, the burdens of it.

I read an article about one illegal Hispanic construction worker who had positioned himself into a nice slice of the “American Pie”. Enjoying a nice income, a nice truck, a nice house, and a nice business, he was furious that the US Immigration and Naturalization Service had finally gotten around to catching him. He issued this haughty line : “This country is so ungrateful.” What the hell… The sheer nerve of this type of person is truly incredible. If I plant a nice garden in someone else’s backyard, is that MY garden?? Of course not. Illegals have no claims or rights to America. Period. What kind of rights would I have in Mexico as an illegal alien? They would boot me out of there without so much as an, “Adios!”

There is a right way to do something and there is a wrong way. Whether they find themselves in North Dakota, Maine, or Southern California, illegal aliens need to get the hell out of this country and re-enter it the right way if they wish to earn America’s proper regard. This is not about racism or Hispanic bashing… I challenge any of these illegals and any of their supporters to give me a sound reason why the American people should put up with their nonsense. Comments such as, “You took this country from the native Americans and now we are going to take it from you”, do not qualify. Every people of every nation of the world has “blood” on their hands. There is no such thing as an “innocent” nation that hasn’t migrated somewhere and remained somewhere without acts of violence, treachery, or deceit…even the native Americans warred with other native Americans before Europeans arrived on the scene. But, once a group of people “win” this sort of territorial conflict and they establish themselves in a region of the world, they are, then, answerable to no one, except their own citizens, regarding the land they occupy and the laws they institute (until they are taken over by another act of war…).

Now, if these illegals think that they are going to conquer the American people, in this day and age, and make us kow-tow to their laws, their “culture”, their bastards, their ignorance, and their horrors, they are sadly mistaken. It’s a shame how some white American liberals are so mired in guilt about the sins of their forefathers (concerning slavery and other social injustices ) that they don’t know how to react to brown people breaking our laws. They are so paralyzed by their PC sensibilities that they think being supportive of these felons will earn them some breeding points. They are confused about what the real issue is. They need to get a grip and to realize that an illegal alien in this country is not synonymous with an Hispanic person. This is about a mass invasion of law breakers. They could be purple for all I care. It’s the actions of these illegals which should concern patriots; patriotic black Americans, patriotic Hispanic Americans, patriotic Chinese Americans, patriotic white Americans, patriotic Muslim Americans, patriotic Somoan Americans, and so forth. Fortunately, most American citizens are fighting to reverse this situation. An anti-illegal movement is amassing and gaining strength on a Congressional level, even now. The American people must (and will) stand by our Constitution or we will fall for absolutely A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G.

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Posted: 07 November 2007 11:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Whew, tell us how you really feel! wink

I’m probably not the best advocate for the someewhat exaggerated pro-immigrant position you seem to be mad at since I don’t hold it myself, but I thought I’d answer a few points just to start things off.

The problem can be divided, roughly, into ethical and practical issues.

On the ethical side, you clearly believe that if we have a comfortable and prosperous society, partly as a result of own effort but frankly also by historical good fortune and the efforts of generations of immigrants before us, that we have every right to keep it to ourselves while our neighbors starve. I think many of us aren’t convinced that’s the moral thing to do, so we are less quick to criminalize fleeing from poverty than you. And some of us feel that as human beings with legitimate needs and interests, these folks deserve compassion and kindness, rather than being labeled as criminals and their children as “bastards” as you say. You emphasize that they are breaking the law, but if I happen to think the law is wrong, morally or for practical reasons, I’m not so offended by people breaking it as you. So you start with the moral position that what’s ours is ours and they should damn well stay where they are and sink or swim on their own, then you support making this philosophy the law of the land, and finally you get your knickers in a twist about people breaking these laws. I start with a very different moral position, so I don’t follow you down the rest of the track.

From a practical point of view, I think you’re mistaken about the role of undocumented workers in the economy. We have relied on immigrants for much of our history to do the dirty and dangerous jobs, and people like you were just as freaked out about how my Irish ancestors were going to ruin the country in 1840 as you are about how the “brown people” are going to take over and ruin it now. Xenophobia lies at the heart of this more than practical considerations of economics, as evidenced by “chaos, anrachy, and no America as we know it” and other such hyperbolic BS.  I’m not going to spend a lot of time looking up links to the statistics to support the role of these workers in our economy because, though they convince me, you will undoubtedly get some competing numbers from the Enterprise Institute or some other ideologically sympathetic source and we’ll just end up playing link war. You already clearly believe these people have no value as people or as participants in the economy, so I’d be wasting my time.

I do think some limitations on immigration are appropriate for practical reasons, but I think demographics and economics will force us to accept a lot of immigrants to do work we can’t or won’t do, especially as our population ages. Will this change our culture? You bet! Welcome to history, pal, where nothing lasts forever. FWIW, I live in a state where over 50% of the population are native Spanish speakers, mostly citizens or legal immigrants but a fair number of undocumented workers as well. So I speak Spanish despite being the whitest of the white ethnically, and I get along just fine with my Latino neighbors. I happen to support a legal system that separates church from state and personal values from law, so I’m not yet convinced these folks are going to crush my culture under their boot heels. But over time and generations, things will change, sometimes for better and sometimes for the worse. I can’t stop it, and neither can you. I think we can manage it somewhat, but embalming the nation in some mythical pure anglo-saxon cultural moment is a sily fantasy, and an ugly one at that.

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Posted: 07 November 2007 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Yes, well put, Brennen. When you get right down to it, humans are humans wherever they live; we must avoid xenophobia ...

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Posted: 07 November 2007 01:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Nope.  I believe that we (Americans) are a sovereign people and that we (not outsiders) have the right to make laws for this land and for it’s citizenry.  Whether illegals starve or not is not our affair.  When they become “legal” immigrants, then it IS our affair.  The starving of “illegals” is the affair of their country of origin.  If I visited France and were starving over there as an American citizen, it is not the responsibility of the French government to do a thing except, perhaps, hand me over to the American consulate.

Also, many of the Mexican illegals are not fleeing from poverty, but, rather, simply, upgrading their lifestyles.  Why do you suppose so many Western Unions do such a booming business in communties overstuffed with illegal immigrants?  They are sending money home, of course…religiously.  I am told (with pride) that Mexicans consider themselves to be a, “Cash ready people”.  I would not compare the suffering of Mexican illegals skipping into America to, say, the starving, the suffering, the dismemberment, and the displacement of victims of Darfur.

And, hey…  The truth hurts.  If you are not married to your baby’s daddy or mommy, then your child is, in fact, a “bastard”.  That’s what the dictionary says.  If you would care to do some research on how many illegitimate births there are in America today within the illegal alien community relative to the rest of the American population, you will find that I am correct. 

Furthermore, every sovereign country in the world has a right to create and to uphold laws governing itself.  If anyone can just come into a country and demolish those laws at a whim, this world would be HELL.  Laws uphold order.  Without them, anything goes.  That’s what constitutions are for.  If any group of people want to change the constitution of any given country, they need to be a legal part of that country.  This is similar to my coming home and finding a family living in my basement….  The family didn’t ask me.  They just took it upon themselves to start residing in my house because they want to live that way. Crazy, isn’t it?  I think THAT is a good example of breaking the law.  I dare say that if I were to call the police on these people, regardless of how sweet, adorable, distressed, and/or “on the run” they may be, the police would side with me, uphold the law and remove these people..winter, spring, summer, or fall..  Ironically, I may have been renting a room in my basement, but, unfortunately, they did not go through proper channels with me to secure the space.  And, yes, their actions are criminal and I will certainly not overlook their criminal status or deal with them seriously until they deal with me and my real estate seriously.

You have obviously skimmed through my original statement.  I have expressed no such sentiment in terms of xenophobia.  I could care less where people are originally from…or what color they are…I believe I mentioned this…look above.  I don’t recall hearing about Ellis Island being over run by Irish people in long boats either..skirting official check points and absconding into the American interior.  They were properly processed and they came into this country the right way…and thank you for bringing up a perfect example of the proper entry protocol.

The concept of immigrants doing work that Americans “won’t do” sounds rather odd.  Why won’t Americans do these jobs?  There are many Americans who are out of work…more since they have had to compete for work with illegal aliens.  Prove to me that an able-bodied American who wants to work in any of these menial positions will not work, given a chance.  The thing is, you cannot. So, suffice to say, whether illegals are needed or not, economically,is a moot issue.  The issue that should be at the forefront of discussion is an illegal BEING illegal.

And, having read the rest of your comments to me, I think you need to, again, re-read my original comments.  It may also help shift your paradigm a bit to know that I am a native-born,black American female.


PS

How do I upload a profile picture?

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Posted: 07 November 2007 02:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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slockster,

This planet belongs to everybody equally. Fight for your land if you can, but don’t justify it by some crazy illusion that you’re the “sovereign people and you have the right to make the laws for this land.”

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Posted: 07 November 2007 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Okay, George.  Your house rests on some of the land of this planet which we ALL share.  I am so happy to know that you are so generous!  I will be moving into your guest bedroom this Saturday.  What are the directions to your place?  Should I use MapQuest?  I like to cook cabbage a lot…I hope you don’t mind the smell.

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Posted: 07 November 2007 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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No, you won’t be moving into my house because I wouldn’t let you. Not because I don’t think you don’t have the right to do it, but because you don’t have the power to do so.

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Posted: 07 November 2007 03:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Oh…  I see George.  So, what you are saying is that, “Might makes right”, is that correct?  I think I have rights too!  Squatter’s Rights.  What is to prevent me from sneaking into your house’s basement while you are at work.  I don’t care how many times you catch me and throw me out of your house, you can’t have that whole house to yourself.  It’s not fair!  If you put me in jail, then my friend who wants to live in your house will come instead of me.  And if you throw him in jail, his friend will come…  And so on, and so on. You can never stop us. You don’t own jack.  That house belongs to ALL of ...to everyone!  To any freakin’ person who wants a piece of it… You can’t stop us all….

[ Edited: 07 November 2007 03:20 PM by slockster ]
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Posted: 07 November 2007 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Uh, George, that doesn’t make any sense. At all. Yes, you do have a right to keep slockster out of your house. Anyone familiar with the American law system will tell you this.

And furthermore, anyone familiar with the United Nations knows that indeed America, like Mexico and Japan, is sovereign. What was all the hooplah about Iraq’s sovereignty when we invaded?

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Posted: 07 November 2007 05:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Why capital is free to move around the world and people is not?. Talking into account that people move around following capitals (ie, following labour opportunities) I don’t see why we should allow one and forbid the other.

Here we have inmigration from neightbor countries, and I’d ask: why I cannot hire, for instance, a bolivian citizen who is more qualified to make the job I am expecting than the other people I could hire just because he had been born in another country?.

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Posted: 07 November 2007 05:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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slockster - 07 November 2007 03:01 PM

If you put me in jail, then my friend who wants to live in your house will come instead of me.  And if you throw him in jail, his friend will come…  And so on, and so on.

No, your friend won’t “come” to my house because he knows he would end up in a jail just like you. If, however, we were to get hit by a comet tonight, and tomorrow the whole world awakens in chaos, people would be breaking everywhere. Rights don’t control the situation. It is the specific situation that gives us the illusion that we have rights. The Mexicans are coming. There is nothing the US can do about it. Rights won’t solve anything here. Look at the situation in New York with the driver licenses: it is the “rights” that are being adjusted, according to the situation, not the other way around.

¡Mucha suerte!

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Posted: 07 November 2007 05:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Slockster,

This is the internet.  Paradigms don’t cut it here.  Where is your “proof” that you are a native born black female?  And if indeed you are, what is the relevance?

I am a living, breathing, bleeding heart liberal.  Sorry, but I do think that we are all responsible for one another, whether a resident (victim) of Darfur or a poor citizen of the US, or an illegal alien who crosses an artificial border to help his/her family have a better life.  BTW, you contradict yourself in citing illegal immigrants living several to a building and one who owns his/her own house and doesn’t pay taxes.  If you buy anything in America, you pay taxes.  Your reference to having large families is cogent, but also is offensive to the idea of personal choice.

Sage

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Posted: 07 November 2007 05:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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…or you could start shooting them. But first you’d have to change the “right” and justify why it would it should be legal to kill people who wish to make $5 per hour instead of five cents. But then, who would take care of your cabbage at the farms for $5 per hour? You? I doubt it. I am sure you would start complaining that the farmers don’t have the right to charge $20 per cabbage instead of the $2 that it costs now.

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Posted: 07 November 2007 08:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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slockster - 07 November 2007 01:54 PM

I believe that we (Americans) are a sovereign people and that we (not outsiders) have the right to make laws for this land and for it’s citizenry.  Whether illegals starve or not is not our affair.  When they become “legal” immigrants, then it IS our affair.  The starving of “illegals” is the affair of their country of origin.

Wow.  big surprise

Where does your shirt come from?  And your shoes?  How about your food?  Your car and the gas that you put in it?  How about just about everything you own?  Take a look at who owns a stake in all of the “American” companies that you purchase products and services from.  It’s all global my fellow earthling.  You live on a planet with a deeply interconnected economy in the world’s most global nation.  The tribe to which you profess your allegiance is a figment of your imagination.

Next time you go out to dinner take a look in the kitchen.  Look on the side of the freeway to see who is building and maintaining your roads.  Come to think of it, where did your family come from?  Are you full blooded Cherokee?  Or 50% Navajo and 50% Comanchee?  I am willing to bet that you are something of an immigrant yourself, just a generation or more back?  Almost all Americans are.  We are a nation of immigrants.

“Illegal” immigrants work in this country below legal wage requirements and without benefits.  There is never a question raised in the courtroom about stopping Americans from exploiting cheap labor as a means of bypassing America’s labor laws.  This would surely stop the excessive flow of illegal immigrations immediately in its tracks.  Rather, discussion always seems to be about stopping the immigrant.  As if the immigrant would come if there weren’t a place for them.

Speaking for what is actually going on, “illegal immigrants” are members of American society and are well established within the social class structure of the country’s economy.  Their social class toils under a legally enforced system of imposed inferiority, not so different from the European “indentured servants” of America’s 18th century.

Are you really doing so badly in America with your silver spoon “legal” status that you need to pick on hard working people who have to struggle tirelessly to get just a taste of what you so readily take for granted?  You didn’t build America any more than these “illegal” immigrants did.  You just inherited it.

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Posted: 07 November 2007 09:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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What part of “ILLEGAL” don’t we understand?

If you don’t like the law…...........change it…......until then…

I’m not anti-immigration mind you, just anti-illegal immigration.  I’m too lazy to bring statistics into it right now. How is one to feel that immigrated “LEGALLY”, only to see others enter “ILLEGALLY”?

There’s a legal way to enter into this country and border jumpin’ aint it. Too lazy to emphasize securitization of the borders and ports as well.

“You Don’t Speak for Me! supports an immigration policy that requires everyone to respect the laws of this nation; that protects the legitimate interests of the American people; that embraces newcomers of all backgrounds who obey our laws, contribute to the common good, and endeavor to become a part of the fabric of American society.”

http://dontspeakforme.org/statement.html

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Posted: 07 November 2007 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Slockster,

1) I did skip over a few parts of your original diatriobe, but having gone back through it I find nothing substantive to contradict my earlier assetions.

2) Oh, I’m sorry your black and female? Well, clearly that means you are immune to prejudice and xenophobia so I must have misunderstood. rolleyes Honestly, I couldn’t care less about your ethnicitiy. Your ideology is misguided, narcissistic, and utterly lacking in compassion, and the color of your skin or the history of how your ancestors got here doesn’t really change that. It’s actually one of the things I like about the internet, in that it strips away such extraneous stuff and allows ideas to stand (or fall) on their merits.

3) Well, my Irish ancestors snuck across the border from Canada and got naturalized about 20 years later. Oh, and they lsettled, ogged, farmed, and ultimately built a good share of the upper midwest (along with the Norwegians and the Poles). Perhaps we shoul.d have built a fence and saved the land for the native English inhabitants? Oh, wait, didn’t I hear somebody else was here before them? So maybe we should all leave and let the Native Americans have it back (those that are left)? Populations move, cultures evolve, times change and as Dylan said “Get out of the way if you can’t lend your hand.”

4) The legal argument is pointless becuase the laws theselves are wrong. Stealing george’s house would be wrong, and so we make it illegal. Coming here without a visa to clean people’s houses and babysit their kids and pick their crops is rather a different problem. You are correct that “we” as citizens make the laws, but luckily my votge equals yours so I don’t think you will get to make them entitrely as you see fit.

Ok look. You’re clearly pissed off and you began with a pretty incendiary rant, so now I’m being sarcastic and that probably isn’t productive either. Basically, I don’t think anyone who wants to can, for practical purposes, come here freely without any regulation, but I do think that suffering is our problem whether it occurs within or outside our borders. Just putting up a wall and saying, “Hey, not my problem” is a futile and unjust strategy.

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