3 of 4
3
God of the Gaps
Posted: 21 November 2007 08:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29

Wouldn’t you get better results at calming your mind from sleeping as oppose to mediation? What does meditation give you that you wouldn’t get from a nap?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  573
Joined  2007-08-21
George - 21 November 2007 08:39 AM

Wouldn’t you get better results at calming your mind from sleeping as oppose to mediation? What does meditation give you that you wouldn’t get from a nap?

But, how calm is your mind really when you sleep? I thought it was still active.

 Signature 

Vi veri veniversum vivus vici

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 09:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29
morgantj - 21 November 2007 09:09 AM
George - 21 November 2007 08:39 AM

Wouldn’t you get better results at calming your mind from sleeping as oppose to mediation? What does meditation give you that you wouldn’t get from a nap?

But, how calm is your mind really when you sleep? I thought it was still active.

To begin with, you don’t have a mind. You have a brain. Now, there are two types of cycles we experience when we sleep: REM (rapid eye movement) and NREM (non-rapid eye movement). In REM the brain is active and this is when you dream; the muscles are dormant at this time. In NREM the brain is as inactive as a live brain can be.

I see mediation as effective as the training bicycle in gyms: it’ll do the job, but why bother? (Actually, those wheel-less bikes depress the hell out of me…)

[ Edited: 21 November 2007 09:37 AM by George ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 09:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1214
Joined  2007-09-21

Death is even certainly more relaxing for the mind then sleep.  LOL
Please don;t suppose that I advocate it as a method of feeling less stressed.

For the record, I also enjoy meditation and practice it regularly.  I use it as a means of relaxing and focusing my thoughts.  I also enjoy Tai Chi, although I think that the idea of “Chi”, in and of itself, is about as outdated as the idea of a single cosmic “ether.”  I enjoy these things as rather “down to earth” activities and am intensely skeptical of the more “spiritual” versions that they can take on.  I haven’t managed to get into yoga so much, but it seems to me to have many positive benefits as well.  That is, it has function apart form all of the new age “chakra” rubbish.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4576
Joined  2007-08-31
morgantj - 20 November 2007 08:51 PM

Check out “Zen”. It focuses on emptiness.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about the concept of emptiness in (Zen)Buddhism.

As far as I understand it, things in the world do not have an everlasting essence. ‘Emptiness’ is bound to the concept of ‘dependent coarising’: everything that exists is dependent (~ made of) other things. Nothing exists independent in itself.

Talking about ‘absolute emptiness’ makes it a new metaphysical category, a thing existing on its own. This is not meant in Buddhism. I do not know if this concept exists in Taoism.

Of course, one of the most important things that we feel to exist, is ourselves. So the concept of emptiness does not mean we have no self, but only that the self does not exist independently. Trying to get out of the illusion of an independent self is one of the aims of Zazen.

In modern language we could say that our self is dependent on our brain, our relations, culture, etc. If we would rip off everything nothing would be left. Which still does not say that we do not exist.

GdB

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  573
Joined  2007-08-21
erasmusinfinity - 21 November 2007 09:29 AM

Death is even certainly more relaxing for the mind then sleep.

Do you know this from experience?

 Signature 

Vi veri veniversum vivus vici

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 09:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29
erasmusinfinity - 21 November 2007 09:29 AM

Death is even certainly more relaxing for the mind then sleep.  LOL

Death is also an excellent form of a diet and a birth control method.  wink

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 09:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1214
Joined  2007-09-21
morgantj - 21 November 2007 09:33 AM
erasmusinfinity - 21 November 2007 09:29 AM

Death is even certainly more relaxing for the mind then sleep.

Do you know this from experience?

I don’t have experience being dead, but I have seen dead people and their minds are quite relaxed.  Absolutely relaxed as far as I can see.  LOL

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 09:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  573
Joined  2007-08-21
erasmusinfinity - 21 November 2007 09:36 AM
morgantj - 21 November 2007 09:33 AM
erasmusinfinity - 21 November 2007 09:29 AM

Death is even certainly more relaxing for the mind then sleep.

Do you know this from experience?

I don’t have experience being dead, but I have seen dead people and their minds are quite relaxed.  Absolutely relaxed as far as I can see.  LOL

George said we don’t have minds, we have brains. But I guess If your brain is dead, it certainly without tension. smile

 Signature 

Vi veri veniversum vivus vici

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29
erasmusinfinity - 21 November 2007 09:36 AM

I don’t have experience being dead, but I have seen dead people and their minds are quite relaxed.  Absolutely relaxed as far as I can see.  LOL

Actually, my uncle had experienced being “dead” for full seventeen minutes. His brain wasn’t relaxed at all; you know the story: tunnel, light, dead friends, etc.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 09:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1214
Joined  2007-09-21
George - 21 November 2007 09:54 AM
erasmusinfinity - 21 November 2007 09:36 AM

I don’t have experience being dead, but I have seen dead people and their minds are quite relaxed.  Absolutely relaxed as far as I can see.  LOL

Actually, my uncle had experienced being “dead” for full seventeen minutes. His brain wasn’t relaxed at all; you know the story: tunnel, light, dead friends, etc.

Was he really dead, or just unconscious?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 10:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1214
Joined  2007-09-21
morgantj - 21 November 2007 09:40 AM

George said we don’t have minds, we have brains.

The brain is the mind and vice versa.  That is why brain damage effects thought.  That is why the mind cannot live without the brain.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 10:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29
erasmusinfinity - 21 November 2007 09:58 AM
George - 21 November 2007 09:54 AM
erasmusinfinity - 21 November 2007 09:36 AM

I don’t have experience being dead, but I have seen dead people and their minds are quite relaxed.  Absolutely relaxed as far as I can see.  LOL

Actually, my uncle had experienced being “dead” for full seventeen minutes. His brain wasn’t relaxed at all; you know the story: tunnel, light, dead friends, etc.

Was he really dead, or just unconscious?

He was dead. That is clinically dead.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 10:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4108
Joined  2006-11-28

George,
We’ve had this argument before, but I don’t think you see what meditation is. It is qualitatively different from sleep. The goal is not unconsciousness, but a kind of quiet, focused consciousness. The best analogy for those who haven’t meditated I can think of is the kind of effortless but focused unitary concentration one might experience when performing a familiar and well-rehersed physical skill one is expert at. If you’re a great golfer or ballet dancer or some such in the midst of a performance, your mind is empty of worries about your tie, commercial jingles, philosophical conundrums, etc. You are in the present moment only and focused. Meditation aims to achieve the same kind of quiet midn and concentration. Sometimes physical activity can be a part of this (as in walking meditation), other forms folcus on something emaningless in itself, such as breathing or a sgtatue or a design or a chant. The goal is to be focused on the immediate present only. This is very different from sleeping.

Obviously, death is a totally different thing since your brain isn;t working at all, so your mind (by which, I think most of us mean the sum of the conscious activities of the brain as experienced, without necessarily a complete awareness or understanding of the underlying neural mechanisms) doesn’t exist.

 Signature 

The SkeptVet Blog
You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place. 
Johnathan Swift

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2007 10:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1923
Joined  2007-10-28
Occam - 20 November 2007 03:28 PM

Damn it, KKwan, you’re still thinking like an empirical physicist.  When I said “nothing” I meant NOTHING.  In other words, before anything, even dark or vacuum energy.  Don’t try to slip a something into my nothing.  Get your own nothing if you want to do that.  LOL

Occam

But your nothing became nothingness later in your post. Can you give me an example of nothing in this middle world that we live in? :grin:

[ Edited: 21 November 2007 10:31 AM by kkwan ]
 Signature 

I am, therefore I think.

Profile
 
 
   
3 of 4
3