I find a fine line between discussing what a person believes versus prosyleting and sometimes it is too fuzzy for some, so just bringing up the mere fact that I may believe in a higher power, has labelled me as a fanatic trying to convert them. Haha. I am very much not religious, and have fought hard against the ‘Christian’ agenda for too long to be grouped with them when I discuss Christianity.
You accept, possibly enjoy, reason and rational debates and (maybe I misunderstood but,) you hint at possibly prescribing to a supernatural power. I am thoroughly intrigued. Do you mind sharing more of your beliefs?
Sure, I am one of those liberal or progressive Christians. I also do not believe in the ‘hell’ which Christianity teaches, actually believing that in fact if that ‘hell’ actually exists, it is only for those who call themselves ‘Christians’ but do not do good as ‘Christians’ say they are to do. But I can talk about that another time. I am primarily a humanist and rationalist and actually help Christians leave “Christianity”.
Hey! I just realized this forum had a Check Spelling function! I wish I had used it previously.
Sure, I am one of those liberal or progressive Christians. I also do not believe in the ‘hell’ which Christianity teaches, actually believing that in fact if that ‘hell’ actually exists, it is only for those who call themselves ‘Christians’ but do not do good as ‘Christians’ say they are to do. But I can talk about that another time. I am primarily a humanist and rationalist and actually help Christians leave “Christianity”.
Thanks for sharing Craig. I don’t want to spark any division. I am just curious about all the varieties of personal religious views; what stay, what goes and why. My first question would be the same as George’s question and also would you say that you are a deist or a theist?
Sure, I am one of those liberal or progressive Christians. I also do not believe in the ‘hell’ which Christianity teaches, actually believing that in fact if that ‘hell’ actually exists, it is only for those who call themselves ‘Christians’ but do not do good as ‘Christians’ say they are to do. But I can talk about that another time. I am primarily a humanist and rationalist and actually help Christians leave “Christianity”.
Thanks for sharing Craig. I don’t want to spark any division. I am just curious about all the varieties of personal religious views; what stay, what goes and why. My first question would be the same as George’s question and also would you say that you are a deist or a theist?
I hope no division comes from it, though I understand there are some in this world who have a deep seated anger concerning even the slightest degree of theism; which is probably why I entered into this discussion because the author found it insulting that liberal or progressive Christians get grouped by militaristic atheists as being the same as fundimental religious Christians quite annoying, if not misdirected.
I will send you what I believe by PM.
I also invented a countermeme I call Nolin’s Law. It is based on the Goodwin’s Law.
Reall, I am focusing on a True Scottsman fallacy concerning conversations with a ‘true Christian’.
Nolin’s Law states: The longer the discussion with a ‘true Christian’, the probability that they will use an Ad Hominem attack (usually concerning someone’s state of heart or salvation will be called into question), becomes 1.
Because a ‘true Christian’ would should always be compassionate, kind, and tolerant of all people but fail consistantly to act it out.
[ Edited: 18 December 2007 03:33 PM by Craig_SOtW ]
The thing is, I’m not sure he counts because he’s gotten death threats over this… from Xians. On the flip side, I understand he was invited and accepted the invitation to speak at some Humanists groups. Thing is, I have not seen this noted on any Humanist sites, so I can’t verify that he was and did. He has had to defend his views to fellow priests and bishops though, see his book Here I Stand and has even criticized Evangelical Fundies. So which side would people count him, esp since he attacks the Far Right Xians and is attack by many different Xians?
So here is a very devout religious man, who Dawkins praised on page 237 of The God Delusion, but the many Xians condemn. As my younger son is so fond of saying in such confusing situations, “Whaddup wid dat?” In other words, it’s insane and makes no sense- thus why his confusing English. Sadly, when the truth about how primitively archaic religion is, Christians attack anyone who says it. Stupidity comes out of the mouths of Christians and atheists attack- not educate. It makes no sense. Nothing civil seems to happen and nothing gets resolved.
Craig, since you are a progressive Christian, maybe you could explain this lunacy to us or maybe help us understand it.
What else do progressive Christians believe in? Is Jesus a son of God, for example?
Craig, since you are a progressive Christian, maybe you could explain this lunacy to us or maybe help us understand it.
Being a progressive or liberal Christian, is just another label which cannot possibly quantify or qualify. The ideas are numerous, but the central understanding seems to be that Christianity as it has been taught today by the fundamentalism Christian Religion is not actually Christianity at all but something completely different. So I don’t know how to explain what someone else believes, but I can explain what I believe. Though I believe this is not the thread to discuss it, unless you are okay with it.
On a side note, I know what it feels like to be threatened with violence by Christians who cannot accept reason. I find the reason they do this, is because they do not know as much about Christianity as they think they do, even in it’s purest form of spiritualism.
[ Edited: 18 December 2007 04:44 PM by Craig_SOtW ]
On a side note, I know what it feels like to be threatened with violence by Christians who cannot accept reason. I find the reason they do this, is because they do not know as much about Christianity as they think they do, even in it’s purest form of spiritualism.
This is what I meant by lunacy. You maybe right, because before I was a non-theist and a Humanist, I studied under many like Spong. The ones who have little knowledge- like my fundie mother would explode and I’d get called an atheist, heretic, heathen, infidel… My mother once gave me the inquisition (while I was making the “deconverstion”, if I ever was an Xian) and demanded to know what I believed. Giving her lipservice shuts her up to this day, but she still doesn’t know that I do not accept Xianity because of what I’ve learned nor does she know I’m a non-theist (unless her sister has told her). She knows I’m a Humanist, but she doesn’t know what that means (unless her sister has told her). I guess I earned all the badges the conservatives and alike gave me.
Thing is, I’ve never understood such behaviour- from any side. Maybe I’m dense or I just don’t like any sort of violence. I don’t know.
The details of what I believe at this time is not important and would go into years and years of explaination because I would first need to address the misconceptions of the words I am saying and find a vocabulary which would not bring in the confusion.
But to sum up what I believe in a nutshell, is if any Christian uses fear or violence in order to bring a change of good in someone, they are not a Christian nor do the know the God they claim to know. I ask, when was the last time you talked to ‘today’s Christianity’ and they abstained from fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to ‘spread’ their ‘gospel’? Today’s Christianity, put conditions on an unconditional love. Progressively, Christianity has addressed faulty doctrines like salvation by works, but still they claim the condition, that is, the only way God can work in our lives is if we believe in Him; once again thinking they were smart they again end alienating almost all humankind. Then it brings up a whole bunch of other questions, like what about those who did not hear, and those who lived before Christ and so forth, and so now they have to build up doctrines that seem to have reason, but like some here have noticed, they build on a faulty premise. In fact, most of the things which atheists and skeptics point out as erroneous with the Christian God and His religion are observations of a religion built on a faulty premise and rightfully critisized.
if any Christian uses fear or violence in order to bring a change of good in someone, they are not a Christian nor do the know the God they claim to know.
The answer was already given to you, though you ask the question of ‘why not’, it is unnessesary as it does not matter. What matters is numankind, and our better treatment of each other. I can give you all the proofs and knowledge I have aquired, but it will only be argued and lead to confusion about what I believe. To ask why not, would only be nessesary if you disagree with the statement. Christianity on premise originally was meant to free humankind from oppression, but turned into a political statement used by men and government in power to oppress all humankind.
[ Edited: 18 December 2007 10:47 PM by Craig_SOtW ]
I also do not believe in the ‘hell’ which Christianity teaches, actually believing that in fact if that ‘hell’ actually exists, it is only for those who call themselves ‘Christians’ but do not do good as ‘Christians’ say they are to do. But I can talk about that another time. I am primarily a humanist and rationalist and actually help Christians leave “Christianity”.
