Can a christian also be a communist? Yes, of course. Can an atheist also believe that there is one god who was born to this world as a christ figure incarnate, born of a virgin named Mary and come to spread “good news.” Of course not.
Sorry, but your example was not a good one and you only show yourself to be stubborn by not excepting that there are certain parameters necessary to a coherent definition of christianity, and such that a person might meaningfully refer to themselves as a christian.
Craig, I know it is a standard move to rubbish Wikipedia, but they are quite often on the mark. One does need to demonstrate that what they say is wrong, which you have not done with the gehenna passages. Indeed, the view that gehenna is hell in the sense of being a place of eternal torment is not at all controversial, not among “orthodox” nor among secular scholars of that period. I do understand that it will be controversial for certain sorts of apologists, but that sort of apologetics is really not scholarly work. It is simply assuming that Jesus was good and so jamming square pegs of the NT into round holes.
The same is true of the eschatalogical passages I quoted. They are absolutely uncontroversial among religious scholars of early Christianity. (And by that I mean both Christian and secular scholars). Paul as well believed that the world would end during his lifetime.
And Jesus’s prohibition of divorce had nothing to do with odd Jewish traditions. It had to do with the fact that he believed marriage was an eternal bond.
Really, I’m not sure what sort of apologetics you are reading, but I’d seriously urge you to do some looking around to find out what serious scholarship says on these issues.
First, when presenting information and facts, Wikipedia is the last place I would hope anyone would get their authoritative answer.
What better way to get an understanding of the people, than to use the information defined by the largest collective of people? Wikipedia is an excellent resource for information & facts, especially for a web forum.
That is why I wasn’t going to share much of what I believe, because it is counter productive to any sort of communication or understanding. I focus on the things which is right, and that is in humanism, good morals and ethics which contribute to a better society, even one without Christianity. I am not opposed to atheism, I am opposed to oppressive religion, and ignorant bigotry and hypocracy of those who claim to be called by ‘God’ by words, but show very little in action.
You are a very unique person Craig. Of all the theists I have encountered you appear to have the best grasp of reason. By understanding your background, I think we can find some real progress in bridge building.
I have been a pastors son for 28 years, Diploma in Biblical Studies and went to a private Mennonite High School. Since the age of four purposed in my heart to be wise like King Solomon, I spent my free time studying Scripture, listening to bible on tape while I slept and this routine lasted for 18 years, I was in a bubble, since my father was the pastor, I ignored him (haha) so I never really learned what religion he was teaching. I had a religion based on what I was reading day and night for 14 years and one day it occurred to me that the Christianity I knew was not the Christianity that was being taught. So I began to challenge every doctrine which did not line up to what I learned on my own with very real success. The pastors could not answer my queries, and the teachers were astounded on how ‘decieved’ I was but were unable to answer any question. Every doctrine they had learned in their bible schools, I had undone by knowledge of history, Scripture and reason. Everything from water baptism, to the magic prayer, to the church government and society as a whole. The religion of Christianity bared little simularity to the Christianity I believed and taught. One day, in my anger towards Christianity, I met a few people who saw it too and by all accounts had the same conclusions and reasons I did and then I discovered there were more than just the few of us who claimed to follow a Christ, which Christianity did not teach but was one of love, compassion, justice and fairness.
I have a few more questions regarding your personal beliefs, if you don’t mind. Do you believe in a Heaven and/or Hell?
I believe in Heaven, and without going into detail, all humankind is headed there. The Hell of modern Christianity is a Greek Myth, it pagan in origin. In fact, even if I did believe in that hell, we read the end of Revelation, Hell is empty as it had to give up the dead which was in it.
Does your God practice in-group/ out-group associations (rules to the club)?
If you mean by water baptism, the lord’s prayer, accepting by faith that Jesus is the Son of God in order to be saved et al. There is no work, no belief, no word, no faith, no anything which is conditioned on us to be in the favor of God. You are as much blessed or more than I who believes, the rain falls on all humankind.
As for humanism, how do you know your humanist views are right? Where do you draw your morals & ethics? Do you assign a purpose to the world?
That is for society to decide, as for me, feeding the poor, helping the homeless, educating the masses of the evils of men looking to take advantage of them. People abusing power is not just found in religion, but governements, corporations, etc. you don’t need ‘God’ to know what is good and evil and what is good for the benefit of life.
[ Edited: 19 December 2007 03:06 PM by Craig_SOtW ]
First, when presenting information and facts, Wikipedia is the last place I would hope anyone would get their authoritative answer.
What better way to get an understanding of the people, than to use the information defined by the largest collective of people? Wikipedia is an excellent resource for information & facts, especially for a web forum.
So dp you fall under the belief that truth is subjective to society view of it, regardless of the facts?
I never said Wikipedia was not good, I just find it odd that a subjective encyclopedia of knowledge which relies mainly on people’s perception of what facts are, would be the first place a skeptic or atheist would go to for their answers.
Really, I’m not sure what sort of apologetics you are reading, but I’d seriously urge you to do some looking around to find out what serious scholarship says on these issues.
Craig,
Sorry, but your example was not a good one and you only show yourself to be stubborn by not excepting that there are certain parameters necessary to a coherent definition of christianity, and such that a person might meaningfully refer to themselves as a christian.
You know, it is very offensive to recieve double speak. This is why I did not want to go into this, I have not called anyone stupid, or ignorant, nor have I called them stubborn or misguided. Yet, now in the last five posts, I am recieving replies fomr you and others which have no bearing on reason, but their own personal opinion and now you resort to an Ad Homimen attack.
Just because I have no yet provided my sources, doesn’t mean I do not have them. I was asked what I believe, not to prove it. I am not here to debate every point of contention which was never in contention to begin with. If you have a disagreement with Christianity, that is your own disagrement with it, chances are it is not what I believe that you disagree with in the first place.
I do not represent mainstream, fundamentalist, Roman Catholic, Protestant Christianity. That is the fallacy of the majority, and the fact is, the majority is not always right.
I challenge you to ask anyone who is a Christian for the basis and hope of their belief, and they will become speechless and then begin to participate in Nolin’s Law. How are they an authority of Christianity if they know nothing about it?
Thank-you.
[ Edited: 19 December 2007 03:04 PM by Craig_SOtW ]
Well, Craig. I don’t wish to be offensive to you. I didn’t call you stupid or ignorant, but if you consider being called stubborn to fit into the same category as those words than I’d suggest that you lighten up. And maybe be a little bit less stubborn about it. Believe me, I am more than a bit accustomed to being told that my beliefs are offensive. And quite oppressively I might add.
Craig_SOtW - 19 December 2007 02:46 PM
As for humanism, how do you know your humanist views are right? Where do you draw your morals & ethics? Do you assign a purpose to the world?
That is for society to decide, as for me, feeding the poor, helping the homeless, educating the masses of the evils of men looking to take advantage of them. People abusing power is not just found in religion, but governements, corporations, etc. you don’t need ‘God’ to know what is good and evil and what is good for the benefit of life.
You and I may disagree about matters of gods, but if you really mean what you say about putting humanitarian causes at the fore then you and I probably have much in common. More, perhaps, than I do with many other atheists and more, perhaps, than you do with many other christians. Whatever you wish to call yourself, I am glad that you put deed before creed. That is what matters to me most too.
Really, I’m not sure what sort of apologetics you are reading, but I’d seriously urge you to do some looking around to find out what serious scholarship says on these issues.
Like Wikipedia?
Certainly the external links at the bottom of the wiki page are a good place to start, such as HERE (Columbia Encyclopedia):
A place for burning refuse in later Israelite times, it provided imagery for a fiery Hell in the Books of Isaiah and the New Testament.
Gehenna The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the “valley of the son of Hinnom,” to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and “Gehenna” therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for “hell.” ...
I have been a pastors son for 28 years… I spent my free time studying Scripture… I was in a bubble… I began to challenge every doctrine which did not line up to what I learned on my own. The pastors could not answer my queries, and the teachers were astounded on how ‘decieved’ I was but were unable to answer any question. Every doctrine they had learned in their bible schools, I had undone by knowledge of history, Scripture and reason.
A true hard nocks skeptic, we have similar backgrounds. I am sure you will find informative discussions and rational arguments on this forum.
Craig_SOtW - 19 December 2007 02:46 PM
I believe in Heaven, and without going into detail, all humankind is headed there.
What purpose does Heaven provide? How do you know it exists? Is Heaven indistinguishable from nothingness?
[quote author="Retrospy"]Does your God practice in-group/ out-group associations (rules to the club)?
Craig_SOtW - 19 December 2007 02:46 PM
If you mean by water baptism, the lord’s prayer, accepting by faith that Jesus is the Son of God in order to be saved et al. There is no work, no belief, no word, no faith, no anything which is conditioned on us to be in the favor of God. You are as much blessed or more than I who believes, the rain falls on all humankind.
If someone were to live in a shelter and wear a body suit outside, so as to not be touched by rain, (or a colonist on a planet other than earth) would that exclude them from your club? I assume your comment is metaphor for “no, everyone is in the club” but I thought I better clarify being that you got your information from a source that literally used the word rain.
[quote author="Retrospy"]As for humanism, how do you know your humanist views are right? Where do you draw your morals & ethics? Do you assign a purpose to the world?
Craig_SOtW - 19 December 2007 02:46 PM
That is for society to decide, as for me, feeding the poor, helping the homeless, educating the masses of the evils of men looking to take advantage of them. People abusing power is not just found in religion, but governements, corporations, etc. you don’t need ‘God’ to know what is good and evil and what is good for the benefit of life.
What it sounds like to me, is that your theist methodology places your views very similair to deist views. This is all done under the name Christianity, something nearly all other Christians would dislike. Would you agree?
I find it interesting that everyone claims they are interpreting the words of the bible correctly, from context, and yet they come up with soo many different explanations. It sounds like you may believe in moral relativism, is this true? I’d like to see how the bible defends moral relativism.
First, when presenting information and facts, Wikipedia is the last place I would hope anyone would get their authoritative answer.
What better way to get an understanding of the people, than to use the information defined by the largest collective of people? Wikipedia is an excellent resource for information & facts, especially for a web forum.
So dp you fall under the belief that truth is subjective to society view of it, regardless of the facts?
I never said Wikipedia was not good, I just find it odd that a subjective encyclopedia of knowledge which relies mainly on people’s perception of what facts are, would be the first place a skeptic or atheist would go to for their answers.
Excellent point, I do think that there are many subjective issues involved with semantics and in order to communicate effectively these need to be taken into consideration, but truth has nothing to do with subjectivity. Truth is objective. I appreciate your concerns about accepting Wikipedia as an effective source of information from a skeptic point of view. I have tested Wikipedia’s credibility enough times to have an acceptable degree of certainty that its information will be accurate enough for most of my linking needs. At this time, it is more an issue of economics & effort. If I were writing a paper or involved in a serious debate I would check and site my sources more thouroughly.
Doug, Gehenna was a garbage dump, in which they also dumped dead bodies- a form of cremation. Wickedpedia is not the best resource to use.
Mriana, your last sentence is a non sequitur. The Wiki entry I cited says just the same thing as you did, and indeed so too did all the other places I quoted. The literal meaning of gehenna is not in question in any of the sources. But the fact that this was used to mean “hell” is also not in question. Again, look at the quotes rather than getting sidetracked on the irrelevant Wiki issue.
Sorry, I wasn’t feeling well last night. A 102 temp didn’t help to see or think straight. Pays me not post when I’m not coherent. Bad time of year to catch the flu bug or whatever. :( No, I’m allergic to eggs so they won’t give me the vaccine. I’m dreaming of a day when they don’t make it from eggs.
Doug, Gehenna was a garbage dump, in which they also dumped dead bodies- a form of cremation. Wickedpedia is not the best resource to use.
Mriana, your last sentence is a non sequitur. The Wiki entry I cited says just the same thing as you did, and indeed so too did all the other places I quoted. The literal meaning of gehenna is not in question in any of the sources. But the fact that this was used to mean “hell” is also not in question. Again, look at the quotes rather than getting sidetracked on the irrelevant Wiki issue.
Already addressed the Wikiepedia article and it’s misquote of a Jewish website. Let me repeat it again, Gehenna to mean ‘hell’ as Fundamentalist Christianity says it is, IS in Question. It has been for a long time, the author quoting a source openly ignore the other views Gehenna was. Gehenna to the Jews of 3AD is exactly the same as the Nazi Furnaces to the Germans of 2007. Gehenna is the place the apostate Jews sacrificed to Baal and Molech. Really Doug, for an athiest, you take the religious delusions of those who call themselves Christians too seriously as being what it was meant.
All you are doing is confirming what present day mainstream Christianity affirms Gehenna is, not what Gehenna actually is. If there was a non-theist example of the problem here, it would be the analogy of a gift wrapped up in hundreds of layers of wrapping paper, and people are accepting gift in wrapping paper as the gift and re-wrapping it until all they know is a box with wrapping paper, forgetting there was ever a gift inside. Remove those layers, and actually open the box, you find out exactly what it was and why it was important at the time it was originally given but now thousands of years of wrapping and rewrapping, has made the gift obsolete and no value, as it was meant for a particular time and a particular people.
