On the surface it seems that there are some prophecies in the Old Testament that came true. Some Christians use this as an argument for proof of God’s existence. I highly suspect that there are problems with this line of thinking, however, I don’t know what they are. I’m looking for two things:
1) Resources that show that Old Testament prophecies do not hold up to scrutiny
2) Resources about prophecies of other religions, and/or prophets throughout history
Which prophecies are these? The problem is that if you phrase a supposed prophecy vaguely enough, virtually anything will fulfill it. And if you make enough prophecies, some are guaranteed to come true.
Many of the supposed prophecies in the OT were also ex-post-facto prophecies—that is, the scholarly opinion is that they were written after the prophecy had been fulfilled, as retroactive justification for whatever happened. So the further question is whether we have actual hard evidence that the supposed prophecy was actually made before it “came true”.
As for prophecies that didn’t come true, obvious ones involve Jesus. He believed that the world was going to end in his lifetime. See my post HERE:
Matt. 10:23, 16:28, 26:64
Mark 9:1, 13:24-30, 14:62
Luke 21:25-32, 9:27
And the same is true of Paul, who apparently believed that Jesus would return to earth during his lifetime and that of his parishioners. The argument was that at the end of the world, the dead would be raised. Jesus had already (so it was claimed) been raised from the dead, therefore the end of the world was at hand. Jesus was first, the rest of the world would be following soon thereafter. For that reason he counseled them to live pure lives. E.g., 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18.
Of course, both Jesus and Paul were wrong about the world coming to an end in their lifetimes.
However, if you want to see a whole list of Biblical prophecies that did not come true, check out THIS list for starters, and in general the material HERE.
For some more examples of failed apocalyptic prophecies throughout history, Michael Shermer has a good rundown of the history in his book How We Believe. It’s in chapter 9.
Or you can check out THIS neat apocalyptic timeline.
I see the biggest problem with the Messianic prophecy. According to the OT “the” messiah is supposed to be a son (or a descendant) of Joseph or (and ?) David. The problem is that Jesus is a son of god. Or is he? If he’s Joseph’s son, he is not a son of god. Or something like that; who knows...?
Yes the so called OT prophesies are expost facto. The Bible is nothing but a series of stories/myths and should not be taken as literal. Any so called prophesy either did not come true or was written after it happened. Apocalyptic literature was popular in the first and second century if not before, but again, this genre is nothing but stories.
I see the biggest problem with the Messianic prophecy. According to the OT “the” messiah is supposed to be a son (or a descendant) of Joseph or (and ?) David. The problem is that Jesus is a son of god. Or is he? If he’s Joseph’s son, he is not a son of god. Or something like that; who knows...?
It’s just a story, George. Even virgin birth stories were popular too.
I see the biggest problem with the Messianic prophecy. According to the OT “the” messiah is supposed to be a son (or a descendant) of Joseph or (and ?) David. The problem is that Jesus is a son of god. Or is he? If he’s Joseph’s son, he is not a son of god. Or something like that; who knows...?
It’s just a story, George. Even virgin birth stories were popular too.
Right. It’s just a story. The problem is that the story doesn’t make any sense and still billions of people believe it to be more than just a story. If god is Jesus’s dad, which would not make Jesus David’s descendant, than Jesus is not the messiah. If Jesus is David’s descendant (through Joseph, as the Bible claims) he cannot be the son of god. And there is also the problem with Jesus’s DNA. Did he get all the DNA from Mary? In which case he would have to look like Mary; he would be her clone. Did he receive half of his DNA from god? If god is made from DNA, he is not really outside space-time.
Well, if you look at the geneology in both Matthew and Luke, they are both Joseph’s. Not only that, you are right, the stories don’t make sense, that is why they are myth. Why people believe it as God’s truth I don’t know, but they do. They even try to say that one geneology is Mary’s and the other is Joseph’s, but the text says they are both Joseph’s if you read it carefully. Not only that, Matthew has four women of ill-repute in his geneology (Ruth, Rahab, Tamar, and Uriah’s wife Bethsheba I think was her name)- from the OT. Both lead to David, thus making Jesus both the offspring of David and Joseph- geneology wise, but both geneologies, as I said are different. Right there should tell people it is made up fiction if the geneologies are different.
Well, it’s too quick to say that literally everything in the Bible (OT and NT) is false. There is some historical information there, and there are stories about real people, real kings, real kingdoms. The problem is that there’s also a lot of myth-making as well. These were stories written for particular religious and political ends, and each claim has to be taken and examined separately.
Well, if you look at the geneology in both Matthew and Luke, they are both Joseph’s. Not only that, you are right, the stories don’t make sense, that is why they are myth. Why people believe it as God’s truth I don’t know, but they do. They even try to say that one geneology is Mary’s and the other is Joseph’s, but the text says they are both Joseph’s if you read it carefully. Not only that, Matthew has four women of ill-repute in his geneology (Ruth, Rahab, Tamar, and Uriah’s wife Bethsheba I think was her name)- from the OT. Both lead to David, thus making Jesus both the offspring of David and Joseph- geneology wise, but both geneologies, as I said are different. Right there should tell people it is made up fiction if the geneologies are different.
Yeah, even Golden Compass made more sense than this crazy stuff.
Well, it’s too quick to say that literally everything in the Bible (OT and NT) is false. There is some historical information there, and there are stories about real people, real kings, real kingdoms. The problem is that there’s also a lot of myth-making as well. These were stories written for particular religious and political ends, and each claim has to be taken and examined separately.
John Jakes’s North and South is a story with real people in it too- like Lincoln. And he has real places in his story too. It is historically based, but it is still just a story and nothing more. Dances With Wolves even has some historical accuracy, even names of real people and the Lakota language, too, but it is still a story. IMHO the Bible is the same thing. So, I don’t see it as being too quick to pass off as false and is no more true than North and South or Dances with Wolves, but if you are going to say there is truth to it, you might as well throw in there being a God too. That’s just my take on the matter.
On the surface it seems that there are some prophecies in the Old Testament that came true. Some Christians use this as an argument for proof of God’s existence. I highly suspect that there are problems with this line of thinking, however, I don’t know what they are. I’m looking for two things:
1) Resources that show that Old Testament prophecies do not hold up to scrutiny
2) Resources about prophecies of other religions, and/or prophets throughout history
McFia
I was listening to a back podcast from The Skeptics Guide to the Universe where they were doing a wrap-up for the year 2007 and discussing psychic predictions. In addition to the points others have raised, so-called psychics call attention to any prediction which can be interpreted as coming true and never mention ones which don’t come true. Ditto the bible. Approximately how long does the Bible say we have to wait for the Second Coming? For example.
In the Old Testament, there are probably other prophesies which don’t come true (although if you vague enough, maybe people just have to wait)
Which prophecies are these? The problem is that if you phrase a supposed prophecy vaguely enough, virtually anything will fulfill it. And if you make enough prophecies, some are guaranteed to come true.
Many of the supposed prophecies in the OT were also ex-post-facto prophecies—that is, the scholarly opinion is that they were written after the prophecy had been fulfilled, as retroactive justification for whatever happened. So the further question is whether we have actual hard evidence that the supposed prophecy was actually made before it “came true”.
Thanks for you responses. They have been extremely helpful.
Any idea where I can get hard data to show that shows that OT prophecies are ex-post-facto? Books, articles, research, etc?
Any idea where I can get hard data to show that shows that OT prophecies are ex-post-facto? Books, articles, research, etc?
Well, I think any decent intro book to the OT should have some data on this, but it would almost certainly involve you going through the whole thing page by page and reading carefully. Or you could get some of the Bible courses from The Teaching Company, for example. They are really quite good; for a general audience (believers and nonbelievers) but they don’t hold back on the negative stuff where it’s appropriate.
If you want names of books it will have to wait until next week ...
Doug and I also disagree on books in this area, but I’ll be glad to give you a list of book suggestions too. Some controversial and some not so controversial, but the majority, not all, that I can appreciate are by Episcopalians/Anglicans.
Even virgin birth stories were popular too.
