mcfia - 18 January 2008 03:40 PM

dougsmith - 17 January 2008 02:13 PM

Which prophecies are these? The problem is that if you phrase a supposed prophecy vaguely enough, virtually anything will fulfill it. And if you make enough prophecies, some are guaranteed to come true.

Many of the supposed prophecies in the OT were also ex-post-facto prophecies—that is, the scholarly opinion is that they were written after the prophecy had been fulfilled, as retroactive justification for whatever happened. So the further question is whether we have actual hard evidence that the supposed prophecy was actually made before it “came true”.

Thanks for you responses.  They have been extremely helpful.

Any idea where I can get hard data to show that shows that OT prophecies are ex-post-facto?  Books, articles, research, etc?

McFia

Some of the books by John Shelby Spong (maybe this is where Mriana is going) address this. I’m thinking you are asking about OT prophesies which appear to come true in the NT.  Spong’s books (and he got the idea for others, but pulls it together well) is that a lot of the NT writing is meant to communicate a story, a lesson, a vision, and the way this message is communicated is in what we would call a fictionalized account which shows the prophesies coming true, to underscore the teachings of Jesus.  The thing which is weird to modern folk is not a fictionalized anecdote but rather the prophesy angle—people would not tell story that way now.

Here is the Wikipedia article on the virgin birth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_of_Jesus

which has a reference to Spong’s book “Born of a Virgin”

mcfia - 17 January 2008 01:42 PM

On the surface it seems that there are some prophecies in the Old Testament that came true.  Some Christians use this as an argument for proof of God’s existence.  I highly suspect that there are problems with this line of thinking, however, I don’t know what they are.  I’m looking for two things:

1) Resources that show that Old Testament prophecies do not hold up to scrutiny
2) Resources about prophecies of other religions, and/or prophets throughout history

McFia

Here is a really nice list of prophesies on Wikipedia, as a starting point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_prophecies_of_Jesus

There is a section there on the view of Skeptics.  I found a interesting point that was new to me.  Jesus is associated with Nazareth, but Nazareth is not mentioned in the old Testament.  One explanation given is that it’s sort of a pun on Nazarite, meaning a very ascetic religious persion.

Jackson - 19 January 2008 06:18 AM

Some of the books by John Shelby Spong (maybe this is where Mriana is going) address this. I’m thinking you are asking about OT prophesies which appear to come true in the NT.  Spong’s books (and he got the idea for others, but pulls it together well) is that a lot of the NT writing is meant to communicate a story, a lesson, a vision, and the way this message is communicated is in what we would call a fictionalized account which shows the prophesies coming true, to underscore the teachings of Jesus.  The thing which is weird to modern folk is not a fictionalized anecdote but rather the prophesy angle—people would not tell story that way now.

Here is the Wikipedia article on the virgin birth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_of_Jesus

which has a reference to Spong’s book “Born of a Virgin”

Yes, John Shelby Spong’s books were some of the books I was going to recommend.  He does do a very good job of explaining these things.

mcfia - 18 January 2008 03:40 PM

Any idea where I can get hard data to show that shows that OT prophecies are ex-post-facto?  Books, articles, research, etc?

I’ll suggest a couple of books—The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman discusses the evidence provided by archaeology in the Near East, and how it shows that most of the OT was probably put together in the Kingdom of Judah in the 7th c. BCE. Much of what was written at that time was for political purposes. I wouldn’t necessarily assume that they’ve got the whole picture down by any means, but they do present some interesting data.

Another good intro to the period is The Old Testament World (2nd Ed.) by Philip Davies and John Rogerson.

Perhaps one of the clearest ex post facto prophecies is that (supposedly) given by Moses in Deuteronomy 28:15-68. This is quite clearly written after their defeat by Babylon when the Israelites were once again in exile, and describes in some detail their torment. One can tell that this is ex post facto clearest in Deut. 30:1-5, where it is assumed that Israel is already in exile. (Cf., Davies & Rogerson p. 145). Presumably this entire passage was tacked on to Deuteronomy by the priests during their exile, as an attempt to “explain” why a Yhwh-fearing people should once again find themselves defeated and dispersed.

The problem with OT prophecy is 5 fold.

1) The prophecies that are ‘quoted’ are vague. Vague in that they do not name the persons involved, have details that clearly don’t match, and mention no specific times, or concrete details. For example, prophecy mentions Immanuel as the name of the messiah, not Jesus.  Prophecy says the messiah would be hung from a tree, not a cross. And, it should be mentioned that there is a large shadow of Christianity cast all over the OT. It is assumed Jesus is present every where, that every prophecy is 2-fold and tells of Jesus in some way.

2) No particular prophecy is ever mentioned. The Gospel writers say things, like, ‘It was written’ or ‘So you have heard’. The problem is that there was no Jewish Bible until after the Christians made their own.

3) The Jesus narrative was written to conform to the details of OT prophecy. The name is wrong likely because of a man named Jesus, who also lived around that time and was a folk hero. It has been theorized that this personality and the whole Jesus mythos merged in a synthesis of Jewish Folklore Myth. It should also be added that the name Jesus was extremely popular, like John or David, or Mohamed.  Many, many people were named Jesus.

4) Matthew was caught making up a prophecy about Jesus. Apologists insist there are missing scriptures, but no known writings exist that back up the ‘made up’ prophecy.

5) Early church copyists were notorious for changing the existing narratives to either prove a theological point, or to make the stories easier to understand, and hence, the records themselves, even if taken not to have been written after the fact to prove prophecy, are suspect because of political and theological agendas that were written into the accounts.

OK if the Bible or OT, is just a history and a collection of writings of a group of People who called themselves Jews.
Then because the troggs of Europe, who had a rather open relations, with their spirituality et al, and came around to a codified system with 10 rules and a bunch of henchmen to enforce, the Taboo 10.
All else was as usual put to the side.
But if the collection of works, has a portion devoted to prognostications of Final days, again it is open to interpretation, and when said Hegemony, has not really understood the desert folks religion, but adopted it because their story is bit sad and lacking.
There is no date given and because, the NT’s version has the prognostications as just around the corner, and after 2000 years still nothing,
But hey here comes another corner!

I agree with what George said about the lienage of Jesus, If he is the decendent of David and Joseph then he can’t be the son of god, since he supposedly has no biological ties to Joseph having been conceived of the holy spirit, then he can’t be a decendant of King David either, yet the bible says he is.

I love this Michael Shermer quote :

“The number of causes and the complexity of their interactions makes the predetermination of human action pragmatically impossible.” ....and one can add to that, “along with human action, prophecies.” or like Doug said, when one vaguely phrase a prophecy, virtually anything will fulfill it.

Interpreting Scripture for Environmental references of Glacial Respiration is the first step to solving OT Prophacy.

There are so many references to environmental change relating to Glacial respiration these I include in my book.

Excerpts from the book:
http://www. cencored .com Glacial Respiration, Conceptual Ring of Ice, The End of Linear Western Religion
A Geological Exploration of an E2 Earthen Planet And the H2 Human Species
Author: B Billy Marse, Professional Geologist

ST. THOMAS’S GOSPEL OF THE INFANCY OF JESUS CHRIST.
CHAPTER I.
I THOMAS, an Israelite, judged it necessary to make known to our brethren among the Gentiles, the actions and miracles of Christ in his childhood, which our Lord and God Jesus Christ wrought after his birth in Bethlehem in our country, at which I myself, was astonished; the beginning of which was as followeth.

.2 When the child Jesus was five years of age, and there had been a shower of rain, which was now over, Jesus was playing with other Hebrew boys by a running stream; and the water running over the banks, stood in little lakes;

.3 But the water instantly became clear and useful again; he having smote them only by his word, they readily obeyed him.

This passage references the Glacial Switch and floodwaters.

.4 Then he took from the bank of the stream some soft clay, and formed out of it twelve sparrows; and there were other boys playing with him.

.5 But a certain Jew seeing the things which he was doing, namely, his forming clay into the figures of sparrows on the Sabbath day, went presently away, and told his father Joseph, and said,

.6 Behold, thy boy is playing by the riverside, and has taken clay, and formed it into twelve sparrows, and profaneth the Sabbath.

The lines portray glacial conditions and how migration of birds to northern regions stops.

When studying and extracting the environmental message from the religious doctrine an attempt should be made to locate the oldest translations. A literal translation turns out to be better than modernized doctrine that adds words to update the text. This can be demonstrated in the different texts of Genesis. The oldest manuscripts of creation, Genesis 1.2 have god floating on the surface of the ocean when in the New King James version has god assuming the power of flight and flying over earth’s surface. Below are the two examples:

Genesis 1:2 (The History of Creation)

New King James version

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Literal Translation of the Old Testament

and the earth | was | without form | and empty, | and darkness | on the surface of | the deep | and the Spirit of | God | moving gently | on | the surface of | the waters.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning | created | God | the heavens | and | the earth
Genesis 1:2
and the earth | was | without form | and empty, | and darkness | on the surface of | the deep | and the Spirit of | God | moving gently | on | the surface of | the waters.
Genesis 1:3
Then said | God, | Let be | light | and was | light.
Genesis 1:4
And saw | God | the light | that | (it was) | good | and separated | God | between | the light | and | the darkness.
Genesis 1:5
And called | God | the light | day, | and the darkness | He called | night | and was | evening, | and (it) was | morning, | day | one.
These lines demonstrate that Ring-of-Ice separates the sky both night and day with a clear and blurred division. Stars behind the Ring-of-Ice would be less clear than the ones above the Ring-of-Life.
Genesis 1:6
And said | God, | Let be | a space | in the middle of | the waters, | and let it | (be) | dividing | between | waters | (and) | the waters.
Genesis 1:7
And made | God | the space, | and He separated | between | the waters | which | (were) | under | the space | and | the waters | which | (were) | above | | the space | and it was | so.
Indicates the rain and flooding waters experienced following the Glacial Switch.

Wow, what hogwash.  It’s amazing how someone can twist, torture, and misinperpret simple sentences of a series of mythological tales to come up with “predictions”.

Occam

Occam - 01 April 2008 04:03 PM

Wow, what hogwash.  It’s amazing how someone can twist, torture, and misinperpret simple sentences of a series of mythological tales to come up with “predictions”.

Occam

Once you know the mechanisms of Glacial Respiration you can decipher any scripture for historical references of environmental change.
Scripture is the oldest and only verbatim human record of environmental change. Should it just be discarded without a scientific interpretation by a professional yet rogue Geologist?

H2onE2- Very Nice!  But Jahweh was a bit upstaged 5 centuries later when Allah made known to his prophet Mohammed (Peace be upon him) the general outlines of embryonic development in utero, the big bang, the expansion of the universe, and the general theory of relativity!  All science has managed to do in the ensuing 15 centuries is to flesh out the details I guess....
Science and Religion really can get along- as long as we recognize the primacy of the revealed word over mere empiricism.

mclark01 - 01 April 2008 08:31 PM

H2onE2- Very Nice!  But Jahweh was a bit upstaged 5 centuries later when Allah made known to his prophet Mohammed (Peace be upon him) the general outlines of embryonic development in utero, the big bang, the expansion of the universe, and the general theory of relativity!  All science has managed to do in the ensuing 15 centuries is to flesh out the details I guess....
Science and Religion really can get along- as long as we recognize the primacy of the revealed word over mere empiricism.

Can you post the part of the Koran that mentions the big bang, the expansion of the universe, and the general theory of relativity? I love literal word for word translations.

Thanks,
Billy

Occam - 01 April 2008 04:03 PM

Wow, what hogwash.  It’s amazing how someone can twist, torture, and misinperpret simple sentences of a series of mythological tales to come up with “predictions”.

Occam

Truly Curious. Some 2500 links in Google to “glacial respiration” all from one individual.

[Another CFI thread ]

http://www.H2onE2.com is an exploration of the universe, geology, climate, biology, humans, psychology, folklore and ancient structures to uncover the beginning and disclose the end of linear western religion. The true DaVinci Code behind the bible is not a supreme spiritual power but a scientific record of climate change described as Glacial Respiration. The Greek philosophers originated the practice of communicating a hidden idea or message in the short story format, as a metaphor. In the bible, metaphors conceal historic climate change within the fanciful stories. The theory of Glacial Respiration explains the myth behind the Holy Grail, structures such as the Great Pyramids, Stonehenge, Easter Island and is the knowledge that was collected in the Jewish Ark of the Covenant.

H2onE2 - 01 April 2008 05:46 PM

Occam - 01 April 2008 04:03 PM

Wow, what hogwash.  It’s amazing how someone can twist, torture, and misinperpret simple sentences of a series of mythological tales to come up with “predictions”.

Occam

Once you know the mechanisms of Glacial Respiration you can decipher any scripture for historical references of environmental change.
Scripture is the oldest and only verbatim human record of environmental change. Should it just be discarded without a scientific interpretation by a professional yet rogue Geologist?

Yes, it should. It’s entirely worthless for that purpose.

PLaClair - 02 April 2008 10:07 AM

H2onE2 - 01 April 2008 05:46 PM

Occam - 01 April 2008 04:03 PM

Wow, what hogwash.  It’s amazing how someone can twist, torture, and misinperpret simple sentences of a series of mythological tales to come up with “predictions”.

Occam

Once you know the mechanisms of Glacial Respiration you can decipher any scripture for historical references of environmental change.
Scripture is the oldest and only verbatim human record of environmental change. Should it just be discarded without a scientific interpretation by a professional yet rogue Geologist?

Yes, it should. It’s entirely worthless for that purpose.

that’s what she said