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“The Truth About Islam” blog
Posted: 15 June 2008 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 181 ]
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“Hate” to you is awareness and realism to me.

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Posted: 15 June 2008 04:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 182 ]
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Daisy - 15 June 2008 02:59 PM

I would strongly recommend you be very superficial with your love when dealing with the muslims.

P.S. I guess I’m a little late on that one. I married a man from Kuwait 10 years ago. We have a seven-year-old child smile

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Posted: 15 June 2008 06:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 183 ]
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Jules - 15 June 2008 04:53 PM
Daisy - 15 June 2008 02:59 PM

I would strongly recommend you be very superficial with your love when dealing with the muslims.

P.S. I guess I’m a little late on that one. I married a man from Kuwait 10 years ago. We have a seven-year-old child smile

And my older brother has one PhD, one State Doctorate and a Master’s degree, this just to say that the guy is far from being stupid or ignorant. While going to college he used to date all sorts of scandinavian, norweegian and european girls. He used to treate them like queens, when time came for him to marry, he did a local girl and I’ve seen how treated her. I myself grew under a constant around the clock physical threat, I was beaten for a yes or no. I had absolutely no rights whatsoever. I attempted my first suicide at age 14. If it wasn’t for the military and then the United States and then, yes Jesus, I’d probably be dead by now. And here I am being accused of being hateful!!!!!!!You should have read my post and comprehended it first. Next time you post, I strenously recommend that you keep ignorant accusations for yourself. Should you choose not too, the reaction that will come out of me will probably get Doug to ban me on the spot.

[ Edited: 15 June 2008 07:04 PM by Daisy ]
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Posted: 15 June 2008 08:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 184 ]
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You know, and these comments are just a friendly reminder and comment, I can make similar remarks, as Daisy, about Evangelical Fundamentalism- no not the same remarks, but similar and probably the exact same reaction to that Daisy does to Islam.  I’ve read the Quran, heard the stories about Islamics and I probably don’t have any higher opinion of it than Daisy does, due to the fact we hear so many “like” stories to Evangelicalism.  Luckily, not all Xians are the same and I would like to believe there are some Muslims that are liberal and progressive, even humanistic.  Unfortunately, those who I have ran into or read about are just as loony as Evangelicals.

That said though, there is always a time and place to vent about the abusive experiences we have experienced by religious extremists.  However, it can sometimes be really difficult to control our feelings when we read posts that shows ignorance about the religious groups we have experienced personally.  This is not an accusation concerning who is doing what or a criticism of any religious sect, but rather a comment concerning those who have had bad experiences and that certain comments trigger adverse emotions because of that/those experience(s).

I suggest for those who feel they have had good experiences keep in mind that some have not had good experiences and for those who have had bad experiences try to express them so that others may understand better (without crossing the line that could get you into trouble of course).  If the feelings get to overwhelming for those who have had bad experience, and a reminder to those who already know, you can always go and talk to people who you know will probably understand to vent those feelings. Like there is an ex-christians.net/org/com there is also one or more for ex-muslims, as well as other boards too where they are free to vent these feelings.  I fully understand the feelings that come along with knowing that some religious “sects” are abusive in some form and hearing from an Evangelical that I am wrong and I don’t know what I am talking about or “Well, they weren’t really Christians, if they did that” only makes my own hurt turn into anger, because even the group I dealt with as a child was a Christian sect and considered themselves living “Christian lives”.  I’m sure many Muslims believe the same thing about their Muslim beliefs.

I hope those who feel they have had a good experience can keep in mind not everyone else has had good experiences rather it is Xianity or Islam.  I also certainly hope that Doug doesn’t ban, you Daisy or anyone else, on the spot either.  If you feel you are going to explode, concerning this topic (or any other potentially emotionally charged religious thread), please feel free to PM me or any other mod you feel comfortable with, before you post.  One of us might be able to help you calm down a little before you post, if you still want to post.  I seriously doubt one will be banned for using one of us as a sounding board to vent and just sending the PM to a mod you feel comfortable with may be calming in itself, along with the time it may take us to respond.  Besides that, if you decide you don’t want your rant to go any farther than that mod, I think they can keep it between you and them, instead of a public mess you end up regretting.

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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 15 June 2008 08:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 185 ]
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Jules - 15 June 2008 04:29 PM

There does seem to be a lot of hate. I’m sorry if I can’t help feeling uncomfortable about it - it’s just the way I feel.

I’m not denying how you feel, but what I am hearing from Daisy is that she is an ex-Muslim who has a lot of hurt and pain.  Others who aren’t ex-muslims, maybe expressing hate, but that is not what I am hearing Daisy saying, esp since she has stated she grew up Muslim and experienced a lot of the horrors of that religion, just as some of us have experienced the horrors of Evangelicalism.  I’m not sure if that makes it any clearer to you or not.  What you may not realize is there is a psychology behind those who have experienced the horrors of religion and while those who have experienced the good might see it as hatred, it is indeed hurt/pain that is being expressed from former Muslims (or Xians coming from a similar experience).

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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 15 June 2008 08:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 186 ]
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Mriana is quite right.  Those of you who have had strongly negative experiences in your lives related to a given religion can understandably be very angry and voice your feelings in intemperate language.  Those of you who have had positive experiences within those religions can be upset at what you see as an unjustified attack on the religion. 

The problem isn’t that one of you is right and one wrong, but rather that you are speaking from very different experiences.  I’d suggest that you follow Mriana’s idea of sending a private mail to a moderator before posting your write-up.  That way we can discuss it and possibly focus more on facts rather than negative or positive opinions. 

From both sides, it would probably be better if we dealt with issues rather than accusations.  If you see a post you disagree with, either post refuting information or ask the prior poster to document his/her statements with data.  And to a good extent this has been done in this thread; just cool down your personal views of the religions a bit in the posts.

Occam

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Posted: 15 June 2008 09:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 187 ]
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I’m really sorry you had a horrible experience. It’s heartbreaking that you were treated that way. I’m sorry I’ve brought up painful memories, I did not have any intent of doing this.

Please understand, I was merely attempting a discussion about disliking hate, and thought I would have a unique perspective from having an extended family of mixed backgrounds on both sides of the marriage. I love my husband and child dearly, no matter what religion my husband was raised in. He has been wonderful to me in our “secular marriage” that we’ve brought together despite our families having such different backgrounds. We are raising our child agnostic and encouraging him to make his own decisions about religion. He is a beautiful and loving child, and I wouldn’t change him for the world.

I went back through my posts to try and find where I went wrong. I tried to be careful to mention that I was talking about the thread in its entirety, not any one particular post. I tried to make that clear but not sure it came through. I’m not sure if the smiley face was offensive after I mentioned my husband and child, but please know I just happened to think of a smiling face when I mentioned my little boy - I love him so much and he truly brings a smile to my face.

Given that I am new to message boards, and apparently seem to be doing a poor job, I feel I should perhaps step away. Thank you for the opportunity to join you all for a brief time, and I wish you all the best.

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Posted: 15 June 2008 11:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 188 ]
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Jules - 15 June 2008 09:28 PM

Given that I am new to message boards, and apparently seem to be doing a poor job, I feel I should perhaps step away. Thank you for the opportunity to join you all for a brief time, and I wish you all the best.

You don’t need to leave because of what I pointed out, Jules. I was hoping to promote understanding and maybe even some compassion for the other.  As Occam said, neither view is right or wrong.  Even so, it is not always hatred one is displaying when they express their view, but rather painful old wounds that don’t always heal very well.  If you stick around, you might learn something about those who have been hurt by some religious groups and how to relate to them better, esp if the opportunity comes up to learn from them.

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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 16 June 2008 05:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 189 ]
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Jules, I hope you don’t leave. I think it’s healthy and informative to have a range of views about these issues. If you have had good experiences with moslems in your life, that’s something people here should know about and be aware of. There’s a human tendency to overgeneralize from a limited subset of information, in particular the bad experiences one has had in the past with a few people. True, one can also over-generalize from good experiences, which is why one must always be careful to look at the overall picture, however looking at bad experiences has the risk of turning into hate-mongering or even racism, anti-semitism, and so on.

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Posted: 16 June 2008 12:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 190 ]
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Mriana - 15 June 2008 08:27 PM

You know, and these comments are just a friendly reminder and comment, I can make similar remarks, as Daisy, about Evangelical Fundamentalism- no not the same remarks, but similar and probably the exact same reaction to that Daisy does to Islam.  I’ve read the Quran, heard the stories about Islamics and I probably don’t have any higher opinion of it than Daisy does, due to the fact we hear so many “like” stories to Evangelicalism.  Luckily, not all Xians are the same and I would like to believe there are some Muslims that are liberal and progressive, even humanistic.  Unfortunately, those who I have ran into or read about are just as loony as Evangelicals.

That said though, there is always a time and place to vent about the abusive experiences we have experienced by religious extremists.  However, it can sometimes be really difficult to control our feelings when we read posts that shows ignorance about the religious groups we have experienced personally.  This is not an accusation concerning who is doing what or a criticism of any religious sect, but rather a comment concerning those who have had bad experiences and that certain comments trigger adverse emotions because of that/those experience(s).

I suggest for those who feel they have had good experiences keep in mind that some have not had good experiences and for those who have had bad experiences try to express them so that others may understand better (without crossing the line that could get you into trouble of course).  If the feelings get to overwhelming for those who have had bad experience, and a reminder to those who already know, you can always go and talk to people who you know will probably understand to vent those feelings. Like there is an ex-christians.net/org/com there is also one or more for ex-muslims, as well as other boards too where they are free to vent these feelings.  I fully understand the feelings that come along with knowing that some religious “sects” are abusive in some form and hearing from an Evangelical that I am wrong and I don’t know what I am talking about or “Well, they weren’t really Christians, if they did that” only makes my own hurt turn into anger, because even the group I dealt with as a child was a Christian sect and considered themselves living “Christian lives”.  I’m sure many Muslims believe the same thing about their Muslim beliefs.

I hope those who feel they have had a good experience can keep in mind not everyone else has had good experiences rather it is Xianity or Islam.  I also certainly hope that Doug doesn’t ban, you Daisy or anyone else, on the spot either.  If you feel you are going to explode, concerning this topic (or any other potentially emotionally charged religious thread), please feel free to PM me or any other mod you feel comfortable with, before you post.  One of us might be able to help you calm down a little before you post, if you still want to post.  I seriously doubt one will be banned for using one of us as a sounding board to vent and just sending the PM to a mod you feel comfortable with may be calming in itself, along with the time it may take us to respond.  Besides that, if you decide you don’t want your rant to go any farther than that mod, I think they can keep it between you and them, instead of a public mess you end up regretting.


Thank you so much Mriana. She clearly didn’t read the coran, it’s all in there. She also clearly is completely out of touch with what I’ve pointed out.  From her post, she and her turtle live a secular lives and here she is implying to know what islam is. This is the bottom line. Secularism is not islam. Claiming to know islam knowing that one never lived it to begin with is phony.


And in the spirit of inquiry, I’d add that the coran claims when it comes to legal matters or I guess the general worth of a man against that of a woman, that the witness of one “male” should equal that of a Dozaine females!!! There are 1000’s if not millions of examples to refute that. For argument’s sake, let’s agree with the claim that a woman’s worth is only the 1/12 of that of a man. Given that the former gives birth to the latter,  wouldn’t that make her offspring even less worthy than her whether it be female or a male?! I think it does.

Edited to remove inflammatory and overly personalized rhetoric. Daisy, you have been warned before about this, and yet persist. Let me remind you that posting here must follow the forum rules, and violating them can and will get you banned. Thanks.

dougsmith—Admin

[ Edited: 16 June 2008 03:11 PM by dougsmith ]
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Posted: 16 June 2008 06:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 191 ]
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Jules - 15 June 2008 09:28 PM

Please understand, I was merely attempting a discussion about disliking hate…

Given that I am new to message boards, and apparently seem to be doing a poor job, I feel I should perhaps step away.

Thank you for your comments and perspective—it is really helpful to get posts which see things from other people’s points of views. 

Thanks for clarifying things too—-

Jackson

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Posted: 05 July 2008 08:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 192 ]
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“What we should be fighting for this July 4”

July 4, 2008

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/021628.php

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Posted: 14 September 2012 10:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 193 ]
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“An Open Letter to Politicians and Lawmakers in the United States”
http://nodhimmi.9f.com/ Dhimwit:


I find it a little surprising you that such a letter is being propogated.

For example


          “Approach local authorities about making sure noise and zoning ordinances are in place and are upheld to prevent mosque loudspeakers, mosques and Islamic schools in
          your neighborhoods.”

Isn’t that taking it too far now?


With regards to


      “In case you do not know what sharia law constitutes, although it is different within the various sects of Islam, basically it is the harshest set of laws on earth today.”

 

Well, I remember reading this in a criminology book:

 

        “Most Scholars attribute the low Saudi Arabian crime rate mainly to the strong influence of Islam in various spheres of life in Saudi society, particularly to the        
          implementation of Shariah. “

Transnational and Comparative Criminology
edited by Professor Sheptycki & Professor Wardak
Pages 94-95


http://books.google.com/books?id=qHBMkqm0q3QC&printsec=frontcover&dq=transnation+and+comparative+criminology&source=bl&ots=AUrHnYmBUq&sig=eYj78v-0tJPmN3RvmBuFCmXXbvw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TgVUUIWlO4rA8ASx3ICQDA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=most scholars&f=false

 

One Harvard professor of law also stated:

In fact, for most of its history, Islamic law offered the most liberal and humane legal principles available anywhere in the world. Today, when we invoke the harsh punishments prescribed by Shariah for a handful of offenses, we rarely acknowledge the high standards of proof necessary for their implementation
It sometimes seems as if we need Shariah as Westerners have long needed Islam: as a canvas on which to project our ideas of the horrible, and as a foil to make us look good.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/magazine/16Shariah-t.html

“Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.”

—Omar M. Ahmad, founder of Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)

Is it just me, or can this statement technically be applied to anyone of any faith. I can easily think of jew saying this about Judaism only on spiritual or theologicla grounds

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He does not give birth, nor was He born.
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Posted: 14 September 2012 10:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 194 ]
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I saw a report on tv about an honor killing in Jordan.  A woman was raped and as a result her family was shamed by the local community until they killed her.  It was chilling to listen to the brother calmly describe how he shot his sister 4 times in the face including describing where the bullets entered her skull.  When asked, he indicated that he felt no remorse and expressed no emotion about the loss of his sister.  He said his sister was ruined.  The man spent 6 months in jail which is typical for such killings.  One of the most upside down aspects of the report is the fact that he never says a word about finding or punishing the person who raped his sister.  I have a sister and if someone ever hurt her, i could understand harboring violent rage towards the attacker, but not my sister. 

I agree with you.
One prominent Muslim news and scholarly website stated:

Muslim scholars are unanimous on this. They maintain that any woman, who, despite doing her utmost to resist these thugs and their ilk, is raped, is not guilty of any sin

http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/ethics-and-values/human-rights/168751-are-raped-women-punished-in-islam.html

If it’s this bad in what I thought was a moderate country like Jordan and an allegedly somewhat secular Turkey, I hate to think what the murder rates are in fundamentalist countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

When such principals are encoded in the judicial system of a country, I would say such views are not extremist, but mainstream of the Muslim world.

I dont know much about Iran, but here is something you might find interesting:

    “Most Scholars attribute the low Saudi Arabian crime rate mainly to the strong influence of Islam in various spheres of life in Saudi society, particularly to the    
      implementation of Shariah. “

Transnational and Comparative Criminology
edited by Professor Sheptycki & Professor Wardak
Pages 94-95


http://books.google.com/books?id=qHBMkqm0q3QC&printsec=frontcover&dq=transnation+and+comparative+criminology&source=bl&ots=AUrHnYmBUq&sig=eYj78v-0tJPmN3RvmBuFCmXXbvw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TgVUUIWlO4rA8ASx3ICQDA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=most scholars&f=false

One Harvard professor of law also stated:

In fact, for most of its history, Islamic law offered the most liberal and humane legal principles available anywhere in the world. Today, when we invoke the harsh punishments prescribed by Shariah for a handful of offenses, we rarely acknowledge the high standards of proof necessary for their implementation
It sometimes seems as if we need Shariah as Westerners have long needed Islam: as a canvas on which to project our ideas of the horrible, and as a foil to make us look good.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/magazine/16Shariah-t.html

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Say: He is God, the Unique.
God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
And there is none equal to Him.

Quran (112: 1-4)

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Posted: 14 September 2012 10:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 195 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 14 September 2012 10:39 PM


One Harvard professor of law also stated:

In fact, for most of its history, Islamic law offered the most liberal and humane legal principles available anywhere in the world. Today, when we invoke the harsh punishments prescribed by Shariah for a handful of offenses, we rarely acknowledge the high standards of proof necessary for their implementation
It sometimes seems as if we need Shariah as Westerners have long needed Islam: as a canvas on which to project our ideas of the horrible, and as a foil to make us look good.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/magazine/16Shariah-t.html

Harvard Law professor Noah Feldman is a crank.

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