I disagree with you affluenza- She is not uncultured and ignorant. She may be opinionated but she is dead on correct in her views. I bet that there is nobody who tells you what to wear or think…..
The Niqab and Burqa are the issue.
The Hijab is not an issue.
The fact that she thinks the hijab is a problem shows her ignorance.
If one is to participate in discussions one should make sure they at least understand a basic level of what is an issue in society. France banned the Niqab/Burqa. The Hijab is widely accepted.
Affluenza, Just because a non-Muslim does not know all of the names of different pieces of Muslim attire, does not make them ignorant. Mriana described what she was talking about: “head and face completely covered”. Or did you ignore that?
Personally, I think that Muslim women, who wear the veils, are at a distinct disadvantage in society, regardless of how they feel about it. It seems to me to be an archaic and dysfunctional tradition that limits their ability to fully engage in society. It was started by a man who wanted to keep his women under his firm control. Its continuance seems to me to be a factor that promotes the continuance for those women, who wear it, not being able to operate as effectively in society, as they otherwise could.
You may argue that those women are quite happy with this limitation. Maybe some are, maybe some aren’t. Are there some Muslim women who wear the veil, not because they want to, or feel good about it, but because they are under the influence of cultural pressures? If so, then this seems sad to me, also.
Consider just this one limitation that the veil causes (there are others): A great deal of human communication takes place through facial expressions. Veil wearing women are stifled in this capacity.
I think that the Qur’an’s limitations on the rights of women relative to men, could be argued for as a positive value by an erudite Muslim “scholar”. (Not that I would agree with them.) But there are some traditions in some Islamic cultures that have gone for beyond, what is indicated in the Qur’an and the hadith, in suppressing and dominating women. Some of these practices are downright sickening. For example, female circumcision became genital mutilation, and apparently still occurs in some places, even today.
I disagree with you affluenza- She is not uncultured and ignorant. She may be opinionated but she is dead on correct in her views. I bet that there is nobody who tells you what to wear or think…..
The Niqab and Burqa are the issue.
The Hijab is not an issue.
The fact that she thinks the hijab is a problem shows her ignorance.
If one is to participate in discussions one should make sure they at least understand a basic level of what is an issue in society. France banned the Niqab/Burqa. The Hijab is widely accepted.
Affluenza, Just because a non-Muslim does not know all of the names of different pieces of Muslim attire, does not make them ignorant. Mriana described what she was talking about: “head and face completely covered”. Or did you ignore that?
If we want to have a proper and real discussion on anything we should make sure that when we give our views we are reasonably knowledgeable so that we have a grounding for our views and opinions. If one doesn’t then the views and opinion are purely from ignorance as they are grounded in nothing. That is my point. How can we discuss the ignorance of theistic belief when the so called atheists are not using the critical thinking tools and willfully ignore using evidence to support our views like we say we do?
A minority within a minority survey brings up some interesting findings. It’s far more interesting for any discussion like I said to have a grounding to our views and opinions.
In this case Mriana, she didn’t bother to do any research, thinking her skills of deduction can help her assert why these women covered themselves up and allow themselves to be slave to men… o_O
TimB - 26 October 2012 11:30 AM
Personally, I think that Muslim women, who wear the veils, are at a distinct disadvantage in society, regardless of how they feel about it. It seems to me to be an archaic and dysfunctional tradition that limits their ability to fully engage in society. It was started by a man who wanted to keep his women under his firm control. Its continuance seems to me to be a factor that promotes the continuance of those women, who wear it, being able to operate as effectively in society, as they otherwise could.
You may argue that those women are quite happy with this limitation. Maybe some are, maybe some aren’t. Are there some Muslim women who wear the veil, not because they want to, or feel good about it, but because they are under the influence of cultural pressures? If so, then this seems sad to me, also.
Consider just this one limitation that the veil causes (there are others): A great deal of human communication takes place through facial expressions. Veil wearing women are stilted in this capacity.
I agree with you…although I don’t agree with the ban France legislated…I think that’s a step too far and very Orwellian.
The article you cited here indicated that some of the women convert due to marriage. As Islamic women don’t have the same latitude in marrying non-Muslim men, as Muslim men do in marrying outside of Islam, then some of the difference can be explained by that.
The article also indicated that some of these women are having trouble adjusting. The Leicester study, cited in the article, indicated that a quarter of the women who converted were attracted to the culture of Islam. That leaves 3 quarters who may not have had a good understanding of what they were getting into.
Why would I want to talk to someone when I can’t see their face and why would I want to visit another country when I don’t have the money to do so nor the desire to fly? I find it very helpful, concerning communication to see one’s face. I also think the women who convert are looking for an authority figure.
The article you cited here indicated that some of the women convert due to marriage. As Islamic women don’t have the same latitude in marrying non-Muslim men, as Muslim men do in marrying outside of Islam, then some of the difference can be explained by that.
The article also indicated that some of these women are having trouble adjusting. The Leicester study, cited in the article, indicated that a quarter of the women who converted were attracted to the culture of Islam. That leaves 3 quarters who may not have had a good understanding of what they were getting into.
Yeah there will be a struggle since Islam imposes certain values and obligations on belivers.
The other link I gave has an executive summary some of which was detailed in the article. It gives a greater understanding of the reasons for the conversions but also there is no evidence in the study that these women regret their conversion. What it does show is that their struggles are purely social form. i.e born Muslims projecting their cultural values onto them. Family disagreeing with conversion. Not much support from local Muslim community and mosques for support network.
Mriana - 26 October 2012 06:52 PM
Why would I want to talk to someone when I can’t see their face and why would I want to visit another country when I don’t have the money to do so nor the desire to fly? I find it very helpful, concerning communication to see one’s face. I also think the women who convert are looking for an authority figure.
You are talking to me and you have no idea what I look like. When you speak on the phone you also don’t know what ones looks like on the other end of the line.
Travelling allows us to sneak a peek at other cultures. Everyone on this planet lives their life differently. You cannot honestly say you have no interest in other cultures? It’s just as much an educational experience as it is a break from the monotony of life.
Did you know the majority of Burqa/Niqab wearers are actually converts and the reason they cover themselves up is because they want to hide from what they perceive to be western illness in society to degrade and control perceptions of what a woman should look like?
The cosmetics industry tells woman what they should buy to make them look and feel like a woman. Whether it be a new lipstick or the new eye pencil or mascara. The fashion industry promotes size zero and get magazines to tell women how to diet or why they need to be a certain shape and size. So we end up with women with bulimia, low self-esteem and even going to as great lengths as surgery.
So are you surprised that some woman choose to turn to islam which affords them a cover so no one can judge them based on physical attributes and they no longer have to live up to the so called expectations of what a woman looks like? People then have to deal with their intellect at that point.
...Did you know the majority of Burqa/Niqab wearers are actually converts and the reason they cover themselves up is because they want to hide from what they perceive to be western illness in society to degrade and control perceptions of what a woman should look like?
The cosmetics industry tells woman what they should buy to make them look and feel like a woman. Whether it be a new lipstick or the new eye pencil or mascara. The fashion industry promotes size zero and get magazines to tell women how to diet or why they need to be a certain shape and size. So we end up with women with bulimia, low self-esteem and even going to as great lengths as surgery.
So are you surprised that some woman choose to turn to islam which affords them a cover so no one can judge them based on physical attributes and they no longer have to live up to the so called expectations of what a woman looks like? People then have to deal with their intellect at that point.
Western women do seem to me to be rather obsessive in having to wear makeup. If I were a woman and felt badly about pressures to wear makeup and to look a certain way, I think that I would do better to say “To hell with what other people think”, and simply stop using make up.
I think that it would be rather self defeating to join a culture (that also pressures me in a lot of other ways) where women veil their faces. By dealing with the issue that way, I am now pressured, by a new peer group, to always wear a veil in public. And the old peer group probably thinks even worse of me than if I simply stopped using makeup.
On a side note, I would like to say that it is nice to have someone who seems somewhat knowledgeble about Islam to have dialogue with. That being said, I personally, don’t wish to inhibit the thoughts of others who may not be as knowledgeble.
That does not mean they are fully matured physically and emotionally and more young girls die in childbirth than fully mature women. Just because she has her first period at the age of 12 does not mean she is ready for sex, pregnancy, and child birth.
That is why I quoted
Albrecht von Haller (1775), for example, claimed that girls in the southerly regions of Asia, where the climate was warm, were marriageable in their eighth year and gave birth in their ninth or tenth year
I call B.S. She was still playing with dolls and was just a little girl, despite any signs of puberty,
I dont know about you, but in my town, its not abnormal to see high school girls with dolls.
Colleges such as the Saqlatuniya Madrasa in Cairo were funded and staffed entirely by women. The most recent study of Muslim female academicians, by Ruth Roded, charts an extraordinary dilemma for the researcher:
‘If U.S. and European historians feel a need to reconstruct women’s history because women are invisible in the traditional sources, Islamic scholars are faced with a plethora of source material that has only
begun to be studied. [ . . . ] In reading the biographies of thousands of Muslim women scholars, one is amazed at the evidence that contradicts the view of Muslim women as marginal, secluded, and
restricted.’
Stereotypes come under almost intolerable strain when Roded documents the fact that the proportion of female lecturers in many classical Islamic colleges was higher than in modern Western universities. A’isha, Mother of Believers, who taught hadith in the ur-mosque of Islam, is as always the indispensable paradigm: lively, intelligent, devout, and humbling to all subsequent memory.
No, she would NOT have been ‘physically mature’ at nine. Girls and boys physically matured LATER than they do now.
Then how do you explain my quote from the
Cambridge World History of food page 1455
Albrecht von Haller (1775), for example, claimed that girls in the southerly regions of Asia, where the climate was warm, were marriageable in their eighth year and gave birth in their ninth or tenth year
What the book addresses is how we TREAT children and childhood.
Have you read the pages I cited? If not, I dont think your in a position to be saying that.
It is available on google books if you want to see it
But to clarify even further
on pages 48-49:
” Society began to began to colect a rich content of what secrets to kept from the young: secrets about sexual relations…..”
I respect humans who show respect. If muslim scholars respected humans who do not submit to mohamed then I could respect who they are and what they do. I do not see very much tolerance from this religion
.
May I please know where you study what Muslim scholars have said?
It is called ‘Broadening the Scope of the Pope” by scholar Hamza Yusuf. Pay particular attention to the time slice 10:40—13:00
The video might not play well. If not, there may be other youtube channels who have posted an unedited version.
You might also find these quotes from the popular scholarly website - onislam.net - interesting (the website was received warmly by Imam Suhaib Webb, as you can see on his website):
“The third category of proof is the meticulous correction and interpretation of the contemporary scholars on the subject of jihad. They have invested more time and effort than the preceding scholars, clarifying the issue beyond the shadow of a doubt, thus eliminating controversies. It was unanimously agreed that all the Prophet’s forays were only for the purpose of self protection and in order to safeguard the religion, and this is not a conjecture but a certitude”
Why would you need to separate the two ?.....when you are right….you are right….the book says so !
What has islam given the world in the last five hundred years ?.......misery. ( not just islam…most organized religions.)
No need to change or improve when you are already god’s little gift to the world…
To understand the connection between Islam and violence, one must understand certain facets of the Muslim worldview. One of the most important is the fact that, according to the historic Muslim understanding, there is no separation between religion and government—what in Christianity would be called the separation of church and state.
What?
Bangladesh, Indonesia, Albania, Turkey, Senegal and Gambia are secular states with muslim majority populations with separation of religion and government…
Also in terms of law giving and government…
The North Frieze on the Supreme Court building in Washington, DC and a Qur’an smack, bang in the middle…
