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Chris Hedges book on ‘New Atheists’ (Merged
Posted: 14 March 2008 08:05 AM   [ Ignore ]
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From Salon: http://www.salon.com/books/int/2008/03/13/chris_hedges/

A rather provocative article, but on the narrow issue of the ‘New Atheists’ it sounds solid. The phrase ‘the epistemology of television was spot on.

(Wish he wouldn’t use ‘fascist’ and ‘secular fundamentalist’ tho - too much like the very writing he’s unhappy with.)

Kirk.

[ Edited: 14 March 2008 08:12 AM by inthegobi ]
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Posted: 14 March 2008 09:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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There is an excellent and very recent, interview with Hedges on Antiwar.com this week. The first part covers the situation in Iraq; the second turns to his book on the “New Atheists” and their services to the cause of U.S. imperialism (my characterization, not his).

The interview (in audio format) can be found at:

http://antiwar.com/radio/2008/03/10/chris-hedges-2/

(This is a great podcast resource by the way.)

Hedges would make an excellent guest for POI. I wonder if he’s been invited?

[ Edited: 14 March 2008 09:18 AM by Balak ]
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Posted: 14 March 2008 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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inthegobi - 14 March 2008 08:05 AM

From Salon: http://www.salon.com/books/int/2008/03/13/chris_hedges/

A rather provocative article, but on the narrow issue of the ‘New Atheists’ it sounds solid. The phrase ‘the epistemology of television was spot on.


(Wish he wouldn’t use ‘fascist’ and ‘secular fundamentalist’ tho - too much like the very writing he’s unhappy with.)

Wow! I *think* I’m not what he would refer to as a fundamentalist atheist but I’m not sure ... I’ll have to give that some thought!

Kyu

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Posted: 14 March 2008 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Did Harris in his book (I’ve never read any of them) really endorse a nuclear strike against the Arab as mentioned by Hedges?

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Posted: 15 March 2008 06:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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George - 14 March 2008 01:28 PM

Did Harris in his book (I’ve never read any of them) really endorse a nuclear strike against the Arab as mentioned by Hedges?

I haven’t found a direct quote yet online, but Hedges is trustworthy. Hitchens isn’t shy about what he hates, and what he’d do about it if he were king. I wonder how much he means it though. (Hedges criticizes Hitchens for being more about promoting Hitchens than being accurate or temperate, in the Salon article.) He’s not a leader, he’s a ‘pundit’, so he doesn’t have to be as careful as they. On that score, I’m ready to give Hitchens a little more room to be a shock-jock than Condaleeza Rice or Admiral Fallon. Or Dawkins, who’s not just a journalist or writer but the head of the Center for the Publich Understanding of Science - and he seems to dislike much of the public who most desperately needs a little more understanding!

The very kind man and woman team who head the Grand Rapids CFI group (not long incorporated into CFI) go to the same cafe I frequent. They’ve told me that HItchens will debate Hitchens in GR soon! No, not Christopher Hitchens switching podiums, but he and his brother. It sounds just a tad like going to see Siamese twins play duelling pianos, but I’m sure they’re debating in more cities than my provincial burg, so check their tour schedule.

Kirk

[ Edited: 15 March 2008 07:00 PM by inthegobi ]
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Posted: 15 March 2008 08:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I have read Harris’s book and he uses a hypothetical scenario where a country with thermonuclear weaponry is run by aspiring Islamic martyrs who yearn for paradise and do not fear death.

In this hypothetical scenario he says the only option “might” be to strike first.

It’s an extreme hypothesis and I don’t necersarrily agree with him but it is a fair point, is it not? 

He should not be condemned for saying such things.

Take the nuke and the ethinic minorities out of the equation and replace them with white supremacists with guns, no fear of death and a desire to kill and most leftsts would urge an all out assault sharpish.. and who would disagree?

So why the condemnation for Harris’s hypothetical scenario?

He did not call for America to nuke Arab nations as Hedges says.

Anyway Hedges pretends to be a pacifist but supports Muslim violence.

I respect his journalism but he is an apologist for Islamists.

PS: I notice that people applaud Harris’s critique of American religiousity and they love his respect for Buddhism. It is only his condemnation of Islam which makes him a potential bigot. Why is that?

[ Edited: 15 March 2008 09:23 PM by brucepig ]
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Posted: 15 March 2008 09:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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I have read Harris’s book and he uses a hypothetical scenario where a country with thermonuclear weaponry is run by aspiring Islamic martyrs who yearn for paradise and do not fear death.

In this hypothetical scenario he says the only option “might” be to strike first.

This thoroughly racist ‘scenario’ is not so ‘hypothetical’ after all ... it is evidently serving as Cheney’s playbook to justify the current threat of nuclear strikes against Iran.

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Posted: 15 March 2008 09:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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How is it racist. Explain yourself.

Lets turn this on it’s head and see if you have an answer for this hypothetical question. Take the word Muslim (Which is a religion not a race) out of the equation and say.

One government is a theocracy run by white people whos highest ideal is to die in the name of their god, they tell another nation that they do not fear death, they have nukes and they plan to annihilate them.

What should the people being threatened do in that circumstance?

[ Edited: 16 March 2008 02:25 AM by brucepig ]
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Posted: 18 March 2008 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Once again Balak you are avoiding the debate. Explain why criticising an ideology is racist and answer the hypothetical question. Stop ignoring the posts that challenge your dogmas.

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Posted: 18 March 2008 06:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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From the article

I was appalled at how what they had done for the secular left was to embrace the same kind of bigotry and chauvinism and intolerance that marks the radical Christian right

I think there is not bigotry and chauvinism in our side. It is honest concern for the people who live in those countries, who can be hanged because they love another person of the same sex or be beaten because they don’t want to follow a religious set of rules.

I think that some of those authors (Hirsi-Ali, Hitchens, Harris) miss the fact that the west have a non negigible responsability in the actual state of things (I feel amazed for the amount of people concerned for the gays in Iran who don’t hesitate to deny them a set of basic civil rights), but, still, those socials orders deserves criticism and there is a lot of reasons to be aware of their moves.

[ Edited: 18 March 2008 06:37 PM by Barto ]
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Posted: 19 March 2008 02:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Hello Barto, what Hedges and all the other liberal critics of the “New atheists” fail to realise is that there is a massive difference between criticising a set of beliefs and actual bigotry against human beings for something they cannot change like skin colour.

If I criticise and ridicule your political views or condemn a totalitarian political ideology that is in no way bigoted. Political ideas are fair game.

So where does this funny idea that religious ideas are human come from?

When I say religious ideas are human, I mean that people grant religious ideologies the same status as human beings. Attacking the idea that the Koran is the perfect word of god is seen as persecution, oppression and bigotry in the same way that actually attacking someone because they are black is.

As if the religious ideas themselves had feelings, as if they had blood, as if the beliefs themselves had beating hearts and deserved all of the protection and rights we grant to human beings.

A set of ideas should not be given rights or held above criticism.

Especially when these critics who call for ‘respect’ show a willingness to criticise the religious ideas of Westerners.

Hedges himself wrote a book referring to American Christians as American fascists but to call Islam totalitarian is bigoted in his eyes. What double standards. One rule for Hedges and another for Harris, one rule for the pious in the West another for the pious in the third world..

These people only grant human rights to Islam not to Christianity.

I can poke fun at American Christianity and that will not arouse the wrath of the Left and the politically correct. That in no way qualifies me as a bigot, in fact it usually garners support from Leftists. But to do the same to the religion of ethnic minorities is racist and those same Leftists will denounce me as a racist and Neocon.

Also I take issue with this tactic of calling the critics of religion secular/enlightenment extremists or fundamentalists.

As if those who write books and articles are the same as those who blow up children in the name of Allah or shoot abortion doctors in the name of Jesus.

Hedges is another leftist who is labouring under the dogmas that the West is malevolent and that all Muslims are peaceful, noble, underdogs who must be supported in their wars against the West.

If Hedges can cheaply charge Sam Harris as an undercover neocon promoting the neocon agenda then the same charge can be sloppily leveled at Hedges, that he is an undercover Islamist who supports the wars of political Islam.

Both charges are stupid and for Hedges to use such cheap tactics loses him all credibility. Sam Harris did not support the Iraq war and he openly criticises Bush and his cronies.

If his harsh criticism of Islam is enough to make him a neocon then Hedges’s sympathy for the causes of Hamas and Hezbollah is enough to make him an Islamist.

Hedges’s accusations are pathetic.

He has lost all credibility with these cheap attacks and demonisation of people who are doing nothing but standing up for secularism and honestly vocalising their feelings about religion.

Their crime is nothing more than breaking the hypocritical rules of the politically correct.

[ Edited: 19 March 2008 05:01 AM by brucepig ]
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Posted: 19 March 2008 05:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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We are doing a disservice to ourselves playing the game “What’s Wrong With You”. I try to keep in mind that there is much which is wrong with myself, and much I don’t know yet, so my way is “if I don’t like what you tell me, it is high time for looking again what I do to find what might be right”. Our nature is prone to be biased in spite of all our efforts.
Only a sustained will can help us to overcome the limited mind consciousness of our nature.

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Posted: 19 March 2008 05:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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brucepig -

A set of ideas should not be given rights or held above criticism.

Absolutely ... no idea, no “theory”, no claim to “truth” should be allowed, as Dawkins puts it, a get-out-of-jail-free-pass. Our overly PC society tends to let many cultural and religious views pass muster with inadequate criticism (including laws that were discussed, maybe passed, that would stop comedians rippling the crap out of religions).

Examples of this (to my mind) are arranged marriages, women walking 10 feet behind men and wearing clothes out of the dark ages, ghettoed communities where trade or association with others is frowned on or forbidden and worst of all (and the reason we started our SJS campaign) the UK government’s stupid initiate that has allowed fundamentalists to gain control of several high profile school/colleges.

Kyu

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Posted: 19 March 2008 06:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Kyuuketsuki UK - 19 March 2008 05:37 AM

brucepig -
A set of ideas should not be given rights or held above criticism.

Absolutely ... no idea, no “theory”, no claim to “truth” should be allowed, as Dawkins puts it, a get-out-of-jail-free-pass. Our overly PC society tends to let many cultural and religious views pass muster with inadequate criticism {...}

Kyu, I tend to agree with you.
Personally I had the experience of being involved in de-programming some victims of cults. That experience got me analysing what is a cult in itself, what is what causes the genesis of a cult, and what characteristics are inherent in such cults. Which led me to start examining the nature of religion and religious groups. The subject is long but, to make my post short, suffice to say that so far I see little (if any at all) difference between what we can understand as “cults” and most denominations from any of the Abraham’s offspring. Including the one that I call Constantine’s Cult, ruling their empire from Rome. I don’t believe that we could find an Islamic current which isn’t a cult. At least I haven’t found one yet.
What brings us to the need of thinking on what would be the position which wouldn’t be a cult.
Or to ponder, is fundamentalism anything I don’t like? In Hedges’ interview that seems to be the case.

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Posted: 19 March 2008 06:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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rommey - 19 March 2008 06:07 AM

Kyuuketsuki UK - 19 March 2008 05:37 AM
brucepig -
A set of ideas should not be given rights or held above criticism.

Absolutely ... no idea, no “theory”, no claim to “truth” should be allowed, as Dawkins puts it, a get-out-of-jail-free-pass. Our overly PC society tends to let many cultural and religious views pass muster with inadequate criticism {...}

Kyu, I tend to agree with you.
Personally I had the experience of being involved in de-programming some victims of cults. That experience got me analysing what is a cult in itself, what is what causes the genesis of a cult, and what characteristics are inherent in such cults. Which led me to start examining the nature of religion and religious groups. The subject is long but, to make my post short, suffice to say that so far I see little (if any at all) difference between what we can understand as “cults” and most denominations from any of the Abraham’s offspring. Including the one that I call Constantine’s Cult, ruling their empire from Rome. I don’t believe that we could find an Islamic current which isn’t a cult. At least I haven’t found one yet.
What brings us to the need of thinking on what would be the position which wouldn’t be a cult.
Or to ponder, is fundamentalism anything I don’t like? In Hedges’ interview that seems to be the case.

Very interesting Romney. My question is why do many of the critics of the so called new atheists only condemn the critcism of Islam but not the scorn poured on American Christianity.

It seems to me that the more fanatical and violent believers become the more likely secular people are to defend and shelter those beliefs in which name the violence is done.

It shows in the way that the violent struggle of the Palestinians garners more support than the relatively peaceful struggle of the Tibetans.

Is it fear of retribution from violent believers which causes many to shelter Islam or is it a throw back to our monotheistic past and the idea of the sacred and sacrilegious?

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Posted: 19 March 2008 06:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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brucepig - 19 March 2008 06:23 AM

{...}Is it fear of retribution from violent believers which causes many to shelter Islam or is it a throw back to our monotheistic past and the idea of the sacred and sacrilegious?

Perhaps some people feel a drive to appease the violent ones, but it seldom happens. My experience is that the violent person is the only one able to accomplish the change unto him/herself. Rather the second possibility is more likely. We rarely drift far from our own upbringing. Anybody raised within a theistic and biased way of thinking, will keep falling in the grooves marked in our psyche by such upbringing, even if there is a conceptual change in our beliefs. Personally I work hard to identify the remnants of beliefs in myself which might pop out when I get distracted. My way, which cannot legitimately be reproduced on another being, because it is the product of my own essence and experience, is to try to stay beyond any belief and work with a conscious understanding of the issues.
On another vein, what I perceive as incompleteness in our thinking is the lack of understanding of what consciousness really means, abstracted from any religious consideration. But perhaps we need to discuss it elsewhere.

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