My younger son can’t eat meats with nitrites/nitrates in them because he also gets migraines, but he’ll eat chicken like it’s going out of style with no ill effects.
You do know that most of this is anecdotal argument right? But aside from that how is your nitrate allergic son on chicken lunch meat or turkey lunch meat?
That said the suffering thing has me concerned of late. And while I find Mriana’s argument for eating eggs to apply even for cows (it is a zero sum with live stock, those animals killed would also not have been born but for their food), I am concerned with the unethical way livestock has become so disjointed from the live part. As I read a now unattributable quote (I forget who) “the chicken has become just a manufacturing step in the egg factory.” I do think there are very real environmental and ethical concerns with things like battery farms. Chickens that make those eggs suffer significantly more in their lives than a free range hen in a chinese farm that is snatched up and made into dinner. Same goes for cows and milk. So unless a vegetarian is eating bona fide all natural (essentially wild) free range eggs and milk there is still a significant potential for cruelty to the animal.
It is the best argument I have had for trying to buy the most assured free range and organic product I can find. It forces, through free market systems, the growers to behave, and it shows them that I as the consumer am willing to pay for that well treated animal food source.
ON a side note, I just heard a very compelling case in the eat locally debate that say that cutting out one day of meat and dairy will reduce quite a bit more AGW footprint than eating all local ingredients. The math was that there is a well known significantly greater impact of cattle compared with transportation, so less meat and dairy = much smaller carbon foot print.
It is the best argument I have had for trying to buy the most assured free range and organic product I can find. It forces, through free market systems, the growers to behave, and it shows them that I as the consumer am willing to pay for that well treated animal food source.
ON a side note, I just heard a very compelling case in the eat locally debate that say that cutting out one day of meat and dairy will reduce quite a bit more AGW footprint than eating all local ingredients. The math was that there is a well known significantly greater impact of cattle compared with transportation, so less meat and dairy = much smaller carbon foot print.
I agree, I pay more for my meat, eggs and milk because I care where they came from, and I also try to eat locale produce. To that end, I have 7 fruit trees in my yard, and my neighbors have several others whose fruit we share.
I was a vegetarian for almost 30 yrs. Occasionally I had chicken, a beef filet or liver pate. I don’t think there was much I could have done to be truer to vegetarian principles. In Nov 07, I was fortunate enough to attend a Slow Food function at a local beef processing ranch. The beef is raised on grass and is cared for much better than beef at traditional beef processing plants. This beef is as high in Omega 3 Oils as Salmon. I think it’s wonderful to live a vegetarian lifestyle, but I am now glad I’ve abandoned it. While I was a vegetarian, I existed on vegetables, grains, beans, fruit, cheese, eggs and milk and occasionally fish, never chicken. Over the years my LDL cholesterol did go up (I’m 56). I’m convinced it’s the cheese, b/c I’ve always be particularly conscientious about the oils I consume. What’s interesting is that in Jan 08 after I started eating grass fed beef, my tryglycerides went from 149 to 110. A remarkable improvement. Do I credit it with grass fed beef? No, not exactly. In the past, I was only eating fish maybe once a week. Now I am consuming more Omega 3’s by adding the beef. Any day I don’t have wild fish or grass fed beef, I make sure I add a Fish Oil Supplement. Hope this makes sense. And, one more note ... I would suggest you read Michael Pollan’s Omnivore’s Dilemma. It’s a great read. Best.
I was a vegetarian for almost 30 yrs. Occasionally I had chicken, a beef filet or liver pate. I don’t think there was much I could have done to be truer to vegetarian principles.
Except maybe not eat Beef Chicken and Liver....
RealGone - 11 June 2008 08:50 AM
While I was a vegetarian, I existed on vegetables, grains, beans, fruit, cheese, eggs and milk and occasionally fish, never chicken.
You mean except for the chicken beef and liver as mentioned above?
PLus I got to say once you add in fish well I think you just have to start calling yourself a fussy eater, not a vegetarian.
By the way, vegans did you know that it was estimated that the average human eats some 2 pound of insects a year.
My younger son can’t eat meats with nitrites/nitrates in them because he also gets migraines, but he’ll eat chicken like it’s going out of style with no ill effects.
You do know that most of this is anecdotal argument right? But aside from that how is your nitrate allergic son on chicken lunch meat or turkey lunch meat?
I don’t know. Would you like to make him eat it and deal with the consequences afterwards? At 17 years, you may have a bit of a problem with the boy. Personally, I’m not going to start introducing new foods to him at his age. He can make up his own mind what he eats or does not eat. I am not going to impose on him my ways of eating or any other ways, anymore than I will Humanism. I gave him the choice of being a vegetarian or not when he was young and he is even more free to chose since he can cook and fix his own meals. As I said, he does eat chicken and that was his choice, not mine, and he made it of his own freewill without any influence from me.
I honestly don’t understand what your fit is about vegetarianism and veganism is. I don’t come on here and make posts similar to PETA’s rhetoric concerning people who eat meat. I could, but I don’t. It is senseless to tell people what they should are should not eat. They are going to eat what they want and no one can change that. Personally, I take offense at people trying to tell me what I should or should not eat. IF I went around doing that, then yes, I could see that, but such things are rediculous. Anecdotal argument or not, I don’t see it as being anyone’s business what a person eats or not. You can also call that any type of argument you want, but honestly, I find it a bit of an attack on vegetarianism and veganism.
However, I will give you credit for not attacking my older son’s Buddhist beliefs and my knowledge there of because he is Buddhist. All three of us are different in our beliefs as we are on what we eat and it is no skin off my back because we all three made those decisions on our own and by listening to our bodies when it comes to food. Granted, my older son made part of his decision based on his choice of religion, but he also has an adverse reaction to meat.
What I’m saying is, you can no more convince people who do not like meat or have adverse reaction it that they should eat meat than you can lead a cat to veggies and make them eat the veggies. It’s just plain silly to even try. People like to eat what they like to eat for various reasons and sometimes no particular reason at all. In all honesty, I see no point in imposing your views about food on others. It’s silly. However, you not like imposing superstitious religious views, so I can’t compare it to that, but I do find it silly.
It is anecdotal and unscientific. The condition may be about nitrates, but it may be something else entirely. And many of your first claims were very insistent that vegetarians are ipso facto more healthy people. I have not seen any study that supports that conclusion, and you only provided personal anecdote. Just wanted to make sure you understood that as such. I’m not interested in the particular cases.
But the reason I asked specifically about lunch meat is that regular meat does not have nitrates, while all lunch meat (including chicken) does. Nitrate is a salt used to preserve. Its not some new chemical, and in fact it is found in significant quantity is many aged products (like cheese and wine) as well as naturally in such things as lettuce, celery, spinach, and beets . So if your son feels ill from all meat, or if he feels fine eating cheese, chicken cold cuts, pickles, olives, tofu, kimchee, salad, and on, its probably not nitrate and may be a palcebo effect.
Meat is important. There are a few (i forget which ones) proteins that our body does not produce and can not be found in plants. Good human diet includes a little bit of meat. I’m not saying that you cant be healthy on a vegetarian diet, but you do need to be extra careful that you are not missing anything.
I’d like to add one point in relation to this topic. It is certainly true that non-animal eaters should be careful about potential vitamin deficiencies that can occur as result of a non-animal diet. But while certain problem deficiencies relate to a non-animal diet, the overall problem of nutritional deficiency is no greater of an issue for non-animal eaters than it is for animal eaters.
Nutritional deficiencies are of concern for both non-animal and animal eaters.
In particular, many animal based diets are quite lacking in fresh vegetables and fruits. The majority of nutrients that the human body demands are most capably obtained via vegetables and fruits.
If we must generalize, concern over nutritional deficiency should be greater for persons who stress animal products in their diet.
Not sure I can agree with you there erasmus. Yes we all need to have diverse macro and micro nutrients, but i disagree that there is any evidence that those with animal product diets are deficient, certainly none to show that they have greater likelihood of deficiency than vegans, quite the opposite in fact.
The most demanded nutrients by the body are macro _ Protein, fat and carbs. Of thsoe three Carbs are the least useful for health, they are the instant energy stores more about fuel than anything else. The body builders are fats and proteins. The micro nutrients (vitamins, minerals) are easily satisfied without much effort or significant quantity of plant sources. Our pre-agro ancestors survived because we are a largely omnivorous species, capable of adapting to pretty meagre diets.
I did not state that micro-nutrients were needed in greater quantities than macro-nutrients. I stated that the danger of any sort of nutrient deficiency was present regardless of whether one does or doesn’t eat animals. My point about animal eaters having greater risk of deficiency was prefaced with the words “if we are to generalize.” This was specifically a response to Silhouette’s generalization about non-animal eaters, and it is certainly true that many persons in developed countries (Americans in particular) stress large volumes of processed meat, dairy, etc. to the effect of de-stressing their intake of vegetables and fruits.
Of course, a person can have a nutritionally rich diet regardless of whether they do or don’t eat animals.
But I’ll make another point, which you may regard as purely anecdotal. One is hard pressed to find vegetarians in developed countries (with the exception of extreme cases of persons with eating disorders) who lack the sorts of essential macro-nutrients you describe. What you will find are overwhelming statistics concerning obesity, heart and circulatory problems related to excess.
It is anecdotal and unscientific. The condition may be about nitrates, but it may be something else entirely. And many of your first claims were very insistent that vegetarians are ipso facto more healthy people. I have not seen any study that supports that conclusion, and you only provided personal anecdote. Just wanted to make sure you understood that as such. I’m not interested in the particular cases.
But the reason I asked specifically about lunch meat is that regular meat does not have nitrates, while all lunch meat (including chicken) does. Nitrate is a salt used to preserve. Its not some new chemical, and in fact it is found in significant quantity is many aged products (like cheese and wine) as well as naturally in such things as lettuce, celery, spinach, and beets . So if your son feels ill from all meat, or if he feels fine eating cheese, chicken cold cuts, pickles, olives, tofu, kimchee, salad, and on, its probably not nitrate and may be a palcebo effect.
Tofu and salad do not have nitrates. Lunch meat and hot dogs do. It seems to me you don’t understand migraines and not everything that triggers one person’s migraines triggers someone elses. Seems to me you need to read up on migraines and their triggers. Sorry, but tofu and salads are not on the list of triggers, neither is chicken itself, but lucheon meats are, as well as jerky. While chocolate triggers some people’s migraines, it doesn’t trigger other people’s. I know this because I have spent years working with my own dr concerning migraines. Needless to say, in women their hormones can even trigger migraines, even perimenopause.
Needless to say, you are not a dr and you cannot Dx his headaches like his dr did.
Secondly, I did give you credit for not attacking my other son’s beliefs.
Thirdly, if you are not interested in particular cases, then why worry about any of it? You eat what you want to eat and let others eat what they want to eat. Big deal. However, all I’m saying is there are a variety of reasons as to why people are vegetarians or vegans. Not all of them have to do with the things you are pointing out in this thread. It is a stereotype to think it is only for the reasons you are stating. The majority of people who are vegetarians for the reasons you are pointing out, don’t as a rule stay vegetarians. I have spent nearly a lifetime as a vegetarian for just the reasons you pointed out here.
Tell me something? Do you like radishes? I don’t and never have, so I don’t eat them nor do I let anyone insist that I should. Is that so shocking given I’m a vegetarian? I can’t stand any meat, never have been able to stand meat, so I don’t eat it, plain and simple. There is no actual moral deal behind it, but it seems to me you are going on that and saying it is unhealthy to be a vegetarian. Gee! By that theory I should be dead by now, instead of being 42 y.o. I certainly hope you don’t force your children to eat meat when they don’t want it or like it. If so, I feel sorry for them.
BTW, I am not deficiant in anything, not even iron, but IF I were, I could easily get that from spinach, broccoli, and other greens. It does not need to be gotten from meat. I am also not obese or underweight, so I have no problems with excess, and I am far from having heart problems. Most meat eaters are the ones with heart and obesity problems. But again, this is not why I’m a vegetarian.
I have sat and ate a meal with others who love meat as much as I love my veggies and I don’t have a problem with that. IF they want to eat a steak while I eat a veggie salad, then that’s fine. I am not going to sit there and tell them they are wrong for doing so nor am I going to tell them they will be deficiant in something either. They probably aren’t deficiant, but more often than not they are obese. However, I am not their dr, so this is not my concern either. What is my concern is that we enjoy our meals and the company we keep. Again, I feel sorry for your children if your emphasis is on what part of their meal they prefer most and actually eat without you coaxing them to eat it, because it does not contribute to enjoying their meal.
It’s a shame you’re not a dietician. Maybe you would have more of an understanding about food and nutrients. I have many friends who are dieticians and they do not take any issues with vegetarians. One could learn a lot from them too, esp about vegetarianism.
The nitrate content of spinach, leaf and romaine lettuce, endive, parsley, dill, celery, beet leaves and roots, turnip, radish, carrot, white and red cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, leek, green and dry onion, cucumber, tomato, eggplant, summer squash, snap bean, potato, and bell pepper obtained regularly from the Wholesale Vegetable Market of Thessaloniki, Central Macedonia, Greece was determined during the period from March 1995 to May 1996. Dill, beet roots and leaves, turnip, parsley, radish, spinach, and leaf lettuce were the most nitrate-rich vegetables. Samples of the above vegetables had nitrate concentrations in excess of 500 mg·kg-1 f.w.
Green leafy and root vegetables, such as spinach and carrots, provide more than 85 percent of dietary nitrate, which may be converted to nitrite by the human body during digestion.
Nitrates occur naturally in fruit and vegetables, but only in small quantities. They can rise to high levels in intensively grown crops. Organic vegetables are no safer than conventional crops, in this respect. As far as nitrates are concerned, it makes no difference whether the nitrogen comes from compost or from chemical fertilizers. Organic vegetables sometimes receive more than thirty tons of compost a year, and may contain high levels of nitrate.
Thats enough I could keep going and find more exact lists but you ought to have enough to ponder.
By the way I am not a dietician, but I am a professional chef of nearly 30 years with significant college nutrition education under my belt.
I certainly hope you don’t force your children to eat meat when they don’t want it or like it. If so, I feel sorry for them.
Yup! That pretty much sums up the ignorance of meateaters.
