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Cat Religions vs. Monkey Religions
Posted: 06 May 2008 05:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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catsaregods,

I’m afraid you’re going to continue to be disappointed in the response from most members of this site. You are essentially arguing mysticism-the notion that personal experiences of the supernatural are self-evident, they are themselves the proof that they are real and no objective evidence is required. This is an idea most of us here consider false and very dangerous. Doug’s comments about other gods was intended to point out that anyone can say anything they like about their own internal emotional experiences and claim it is proof of something supernatural being real. If we accept this as legitimate, then there is no way to judge anything as objectively true or false. I can claim my dogs communicated psychically with me and told me cats are actually demons who rebelled against the dog god, and that is just as likely to be true, by this standard, as your claims about cats. Then we just fall to fighting about whose visions or voices or revelations are real and whose aren’t with no way to decide.

You clearly prefer mysticism to a skeptical, evidence-based way of determining truth, as shown by what you claim, how you “prove” it, and by your disdainful scare quotes around “modern science.” I am personally tired of futile arguments about why somebody’s personal emotional experiences prove nothing about the real world, only about what that person believes. You’ll never believe that anything is needed to demonstrate your beliefs are true beyond the fact that they feel true and real to you, so anything we can say here will fall on deaf ears. But I did feel obliged to respond to your accusation that you had been mocked or treated unfairly. If you can at least understand how most of us, as epistemelogical naturalists who believe science is the best way to establish the truth about the world and that personal revelation is just another kind of fairy tale making, see the world, you’ll understand why you will not be able to convince us by using the sort of “proofs” that you rely on-namely your own personal experiences and the fact that other people feel the same way. No one intends to be disrespectful or unkind, but your claims seem farfetched and the depth of your belief in them doesn’t make them any more likely. People believe all kinds of things passionately, in large numbers, for centuries which aren’t actually true. I see no difference between any of these beliefs and how they have been justified, including those of the religions you suggest have been harmful, and your own.

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Posted: 07 May 2008 01:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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asanta - 06 May 2008 12:15 AM

confused (Deeppppp Sighhhh) heeeerrrrrreee we go again!!!!!!!!!!!! big surprise

Indeed ... it’s at times like these I seriously wonder whether we should just drop the discussion stage and move straight to ridicule!

Kyu

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Kekerusey

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(Insanity, the only answer in a world insane!)

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Posted: 07 May 2008 01:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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Here’s a great thing for your cat smile

I’ve removed this image because it comes uncomfortably close to trolling.

dougsmith—Admin

Kyu

[ Edited: 07 May 2008 08:17 AM by dougsmith ]
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Kekerusey

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Posted: 07 May 2008 07:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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CatsAreGods - 06 May 2008 04:54 PM

So, am I to conclude that monotheism has been proven?

Well, I am of the opinion that all these notions of deities are human constructs. They are a mirror of ourselves in the sky.

CatsAreGods - 06 May 2008 04:54 PM

“People have been testing for ESP and other telepathic abilities for decades. Nobody has found anything.”—Sorry, I just had to see that again in print. It’s just so…disingenuous. People have been experiencing ESP and other telepathic abilities for centuries, and the fact that the scientific community of the last century has not been able to properly measure it is merely a failure of modern science and technology so far. Communication via infrared and radio transmission is commonplace today, yet not long ago, “modern science” would have been totally unable to even detect it. Or let’s discuss quantum physics, because there we have particles that can communicate with each other instantaneously…faster than the speed of light…which “modern science” again tells us is impossible.

For some recent articles on ESP, telepathy and quantum mechanics, check out HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE and HERE.

Re. “psychic pets” see HERE.

Infrared and radio technology are modern inventions, but no pre-modern sensitives were claiming to communicate by radio before Marconi invented it. Similarly, particles do have immediate long-distance effects via quantum entanglement, but far from modern science telling us that this “is impossible”, it is modern science that discovered it. And no, faster-than-light communication is impossible via quantum entanglement.

CatsAreGods - 06 May 2008 04:54 PM

What evidence do you bring to the table that cats are reincarnated, much less “specifically directing their own reincarnation”?

As I believe I mentioned, I witnessed this personally. I would think this should count at least as much as hearsay evidence of similar tales from two millennia ago.

If what you witnessed really happened, it would be a discovery marvelous enough to win you a Nobel Prize. So what you need to begin to do is to describe in as complete detail as you can what you actually witnessed happen, and then tell us why you believe that that gives you evidence for the claim that cats are directing their own reincarnation.

CatsAreGods - 06 May 2008 04:54 PM

I have replied to each of your queries to me calmly and point by point. On the other hand, you have been often ignoring most of my responses or discussing mere snippets. Your last paragraph clearly implies, in spite of my talking solely about cats, that you expect me to believe in, or somehow be an apologist for, every “pagan” god that you perhaps don’t approve of. Well, do you have any evidence that any of them are not real? Or that there’s some other god that somehow is real, or more real than they are?

I am trying to figure out what you believe and why you believe it. That’s the point of inquiry.

It’s the person who claims that the thing exists who has the burden of proof in demonstrating so. I have never seen any evidence for any of these gods, but I have seen plenty of evidence of humans creating stories, pictures and statues. The question, however, is why you would believe that one out of these thousands of gods is real. Why Bast and not Ganesha? Or are they all real? The simpler explanation of all of these beliefs and statues is that none of them is real, and they are all as much fictions as is Alice in Wonderland. Do you disagree?

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Posted: 07 May 2008 07:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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Kyuuketsuki UK - 07 May 2008 01:43 AM

Here’s a great thing for your cat smile

Kyu

Now that’s just cruel.  6.gif

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 07 May 2008 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Mriana - 07 May 2008 07:53 AM

Now that’s just cruel.  6.gif

Yes, and I don’t think that it advanced the discussion in any productive sense. So I’ve removed it.

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Posted: 07 May 2008 10:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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I’ve glanced at the website you linked to, and I am not quite sure if this this whole thing isn’t intended sort of tongue in cheek (that part about “food offerings” for instance).  However, even though I’m comfortable as an atheist not believing in anything supernatural… 

CatsAreGods - 06 May 2008 04:54 PM

There are about 1 billion Christians and a similar number of Muslims who believe in an invisible God who last spoke to anyone thousands of years ago. Because of my own experiences and the experiences of others, I choose to believe that cats have a lot more to offer me spiritually than any invisible god whose adherents have caused untold damage and destruction to humanity over the centuries.

...I can agree with this statement wholeheartedly.

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Posted: 07 May 2008 10:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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True enough, advocatus.

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Posted: 07 May 2008 10:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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dougsmith - 07 May 2008 08:18 AM
Mriana - 07 May 2008 07:53 AM

Now that’s just cruel.  6.gif

Yes, and I don’t think that it advanced the discussion in any productive sense. So I’ve removed it.

Thank you.  I’m glad at least two of us are in agreement and it wasn’t just me who was offended or what have you.  smile

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Posted: 07 May 2008 12:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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I guess I’m glad I missed the distasteful post. This is just great - cats are devine, and I’m allergic! red face

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Posted: 08 May 2008 02:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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dougsmith - 07 May 2008 08:18 AM
Mriana - 07 May 2008 07:53 AM

Now that’s just cruel.  6.gif

Yes, and I don’t think that it advanced the discussion in any productive sense. So I’ve removed it.

Personally I think that depends on what you consider to be “advancing” in this context doesn’t it?

As far as I am concerned the idea of taking CatsAreGods stuff as serious is just plain ludicrous but hey, it’s your forum!

BTW the image was meant to be of dubious taste ... most decent humour has an element of that anyway.

Kyu

[ Edited: 08 May 2008 02:08 AM by Kyuuketsuki UK ]
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Kekerusey

“Keye’ung lu nì‘aw tì‘eyng mìkìfkey lekye’ung”
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Posted: 08 May 2008 07:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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Kyuuketsuki UK - 08 May 2008 02:06 AM
dougsmith - 07 May 2008 08:18 AM
Mriana - 07 May 2008 07:53 AM

Now that’s just cruel.  6.gif

Yes, and I don’t think that it advanced the discussion in any productive sense. So I’ve removed it.

Personally I think that depends on what you consider to be “advancing” in this context doesn’t it?

As far as I am concerned the idea of taking CatsAreGods stuff as serious is just plain ludicrous but hey, it’s your forum!

BTW the image was meant to be of dubious taste ... most decent humour has an element of that anyway.

Kyu

This is going off track with the topic, but I think it is fair to explain my position.  It is one thing to view CatsAreGods beliefs/opinions about cats as ludicrous, it is another to post pics that are cruel to both human and animal.  You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to demean another’s opinion by posting pics or making comments that protray cruelity to animals (or even people for that matter).  Secondly, there are other pet lovers on the board who do not hold her beliefs, but can be just as offended or appauled by such pictures.  The only direction such a picture could advance the conversation, that I can see, is cruel jokes concerning cats and demeaning personal beliefs, along with demeaning all those on the board who have a special place in their hearts for cats.  At worst, it could end is a flame war between those who love cats, with or without superstitious beliefs, along with those who have compassion for others of all species, and those who couldn’t care less about cats.  IMHO, CatsAreGods beliefs can be debated and discussed without such postings.

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Mriana
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Posted: 08 May 2008 01:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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[quote author=“Mriana”]This is going off track with the topic, but I think it is fair to explain my position.  It is one thing to view CatsAreGods beliefs/opinions about cats as ludicrous, it is another to post pics that are cruel to both human and animal.  You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to demean another’s opinion by posting pics or making comments that protray cruelity to animals (or even people for that matter).  Secondly, there are other pet lovers on the board who do not hold her beliefs, but can be just as offended or appauled by such pictures.  The only direction such a picture could advance the conversation, that I can see, is cruel jokes concerning cats and demeaning personal beliefs, along with demeaning all those on the board who have a special place in their hearts for cats.  At worst, it could end is a flame war between those who love cats, with or without superstitious beliefs, along with those who have compassion for others of all species, and those who couldn’t care less about cats.  IMHO, CatsAreGods beliefs can be debated and discussed without such postings.

Understood (though I don’t entirely agree).

BTW, I am very much pro cats by nature but (oddly) dislike the buggers right now because my daughter is asthmatic and so we cannot have a cat in our house and as a result of that all the neighbour’s cats come and cr** in our garden and guess who has to clear it all up every week? My current best solution (idea) is to get a large bruiser of a cat that will stop all the others from doing that but won’t come in the house but I have yet to persuade my wife of it’s value as a scheme.

I’ll shut up now smile

Kyu

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Kekerusey

“Keye’ung lu nì‘aw tì‘eyng mìkìfkey lekye’ung”
(Insanity, the only answer in a world insane!)

Atheists’s Heaven *** “Science, Just Science” Campaign *** Geekanology UK

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Posted: 09 May 2008 06:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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Kyuuketsuki UK - 08 May 2008 01:19 PM

...all the neighbour’s cats come and cr** in our garden and guess who has to clear it all up every week? My current best solution (idea) is to get a large bruiser of a cat that will stop all the others from doing that but won’t come in the house but I have yet to persuade my wife of it’s value as a scheme.

I fail to see how that would solve your problem.  Wouldn’t you still have to clean the bruiser’s cr** from your garden?

Anyway, I’m glad I missed the deleted post, too.  I don’t like depictions of cruelty to cats, even as jokes.  :(

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Posted: 12 May 2008 07:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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Much has been made of how elephants and chimpanzees recognize their own reflections in mirrors, and that’s supposed to be evidence of how intelligent they are.  I tried the mirror test with my cats, and they don’t seem impressed at all.  My new kitten, Apollo (about 7 weeks old), briefly tried to play with his reflection, then he immediately walked around behind the mirror, as though he were trying to figure out what the trick was!  Then he lost interest and went off to do something else.  The point is not once did he assume a defensive posture as if he thought it was another cat.

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