I was unsure of where to put this thread so after a few minutes of being undecided I figured I would just put it in general.

The title question of “Is it worth it?” is what I have been thinking about the past few minutes and while making this post.

I am pretty much “spent”, at the moment after an hour long conversation with my father about religion. (I am raised Catholic and my father was raised Catholic by his father.) The conversation was hard to bear. It started off with me asking my father a question about “our” religion since I am sort of technically almost a Catholic.

It was full of personal insults like “well maybe thats the reason you are the way you are and so unsocial and unhappy.” ("that" being that I told my father I don’t believe in a “supreme being or any God”.)

I won’t even bother posting any of the others or it will just sound like I am looking for sympathy which I don’t think I am really looking for.

I don’t know I just think I am an idiot because I just wished I would have waited to pick the opportune moment to talk to my parents about religion / beliefs. I think that opportune moment would be after I have a very secure good job that I consider honorable and live in my own dwelling and basically support myself. But by then would it even be worth the time to basically argue with my parents over beliefs? Probably not.

Is it ever even worth talking to family about religion?

When I told my father I didn’t believe in a God I was also told by my father that not believing in God was depressing. Does everyone get this response from parents who are Catholic when they try to have a conversation about religion? My father automatically started acting like I was “attacking” him just by asking about his beliefs and what being Catholic means.

It just seems like it’s not even worth it. Not to mention the time I started talking about religion with my grandmother who is old senile and drunk almost all the time who ended a conversation with something about me scaring her and me going to hell.

I learned from tonight not to discuss or try to discuss religion with anyone in my immediate family. It seems impossible to do that without having personal insults thrown in.

Is discussing religion with family ever successful in the fact that people have tried it and it was a calm discussion without personal insults or anyone being offended?

Personally, after tonight, I don’t see myself ever discussing religion with anyone in real life (except maybe briefly with potential life partners) again. I have the utmost respect for anyone who can do it and not get broken down emotionally, but it just isn’t for me and won’t work out for me.

Oh, by the way, the meat of my conversation with my father was:
me asking why he believed the religion he does (Catholic)
and his response basically was:
1. tradition and I was raised that way by my parents (he made following a tradition sound honorable)
2. the acceptance of the religion when he was older and that acceptance leading to his continued faith (here he inserted an anecdote of how when he was 12 and some position in the church like pew something I think, he was at mass and felt the holy spirit and how it was an unexplainable experience and through hand and facial gestures made it seem like I was some sort of alien for not completely being able to relate to his experience.)

Hi MA,

Just wanted to react on this one.

MereAlias - 24 April 2008 11:40 PM

My father automatically started acting like I was “attacking” him just by asking about his beliefs and what being Catholic means.

I think that when somebody has strong convictions, and these are precious for him/her, then questioning important prerequisites of it might feel as an attack, or as an insult. To give the example the other way round: I feel sometimes insulted when I talk with somebody who has very unreflected religious ideas. I cannot stand the stupidity behind it. To have convictions is one thing, to be stupid something else. And this is independent of the contents of these convictions, they can be religious or secular, in this respect there is no difference.

By questioning god’s existence, your father might really feel attacked, even if you did not meant that. I assume it is a difficult situation while you would like to be respected by your father, with your convictions. So the best solution in this case might be not to discuss it again. This is not satisfactory, but may be something else has a better idea?

At least your father is honest when he says that an important reason for being a catholic is because he is raised like one. It is still the strongest indicator for having a religion: that your parents where of that religion.

GdB

MereAlias,

I feel your pain.  I am guessing from your post that you still live with your father.  No?  Either way, it is always difficult to assert things with your father that he will not accept, at any stage of life.

To give you some support, I think that you have as much right to your views on the topic of religion as does he and to have your views respected by him.  But if you are living at home, in particular, I would be a bit cautious of getting into arguments with him about it.  If your father has strong feelings toward religion, then I would not expect him to change those feelings overnight.  Religion is intrinsically dogmatic.  Also, fathers are fathers, by which I mean that they regard themselves as role models and caretakers to their children (which is a good thing).  For these reasons, I would not expect his feelings about the matter to turn toward conversion or even immediate acceptance.  Perhaps the goal of being open and frank about your views on religion might better be a long term goal rather than a short term one.

If you love your father, then I’m sure that there is much else apart from the topic of religion that you can share and bond over. I would personally look for other people in your life, who can relate more immediately to your thoughts on the topic of religion.  I can assure you that there are countless other individuals all around you, just like yourself, who have similar feelings of alienation.  And to your defense, you are not depressed because of your religious questioning.  If you are depressed, it is because no one is supporting you on it.  In the mean time and if you have difficulty finding others to immediately relate to in your community, just remember that the world is big and that you will find precisely the support you need if you keep looking for it.  Particularly into the future.

Relationships are important. While many on this board may rank truth as more important than relationships, that is just one point of view. 100% disclosure will not necessarily help keep relationships healthy, Telling our friends or loved ones every negative trait we see in them, for example, is a good way to make them our enemies. Personally, I never discuss religion with family members, except my brother and grandparents who have the same worldview. I know that my other relatives would interpret a discussion about atheism as an attack, so I bite my tongue when Christmas comes and I enjoy the time together with loved ones.

My answer to your question is “No”, it isn’t worth it if you don’t want to damage your relationship.

If you have already found that such a discussion will just lead to arguments and bad feelings, try to find like-minded people outside your family.

Truth is important, but if you tell people you’re an atheist and they do nothing but ridicule you, maybe you rethink it.  I’m saying it’s okay to keep some things to yourself.

MereAlias,

I think you might find solace HERE. I personally thought is was well-written.

Hope it helps.

I think one of the keys here is to not see them as insults.

They might even be true. To be honest, one of the reasons I began questioning god was because I was antisocial and unhappy. I’m actually quite glad for the experience, looking back, as I’d rather suffer for a little bit and get a more clarified view of reality (you can always regain happiness later) than to be happy and ignorant and stuff.

Being unsocial or unhappy are not bad. They are not flaws. They are states. Anyone who uses them as an insult has a serious problem. People exclaim such things negatively towards you as a defensive mechanism. I think in a way, they are identifying the state they would be in without their religion. You are more independant in that you recognize the weakness and this is why you have rejected it, to try and survive without the crutch of faith. To pursue socializing for its own benefits is the eventual goal.

Not believing in god IS depressing, when that is what you know as a keystone to happiness. This is how the culture is conditioning. It is most certainly depressing to people who have nothing else. But it is not universally depressing, and when it is depressing, it doesn’t have to stay that way. By rejecting religion, you need to find things to take its place as a driving force in your life. You need strong beliefs of your own, a structure, hope, faith in your own dreams, that kind of thing. This is not to say religious people do not have these things, but often, some of them get by with less than they would need without their religion, due to that taking up such a huge part. This can happen to anyone.

I wasn’t raised Catholic, but when I was young my relatives were (now mostly dead) evangelical Free Methodist and Church of God.  My mother and her sister are now Church of God.  To tell her would mean the Inquisition.  When I came close to saying something, I literally did get the Inquisition.  Then I gave her lipservice to get her to stop being so verbally abusive. So, I can empathize with your plight.  I have decided not to tell them or at least not all at once.  Slowly work my way towards it.

See, after I left home, I finally joined the Episcopal Church.  Oddly enough, I was allowed to explore my questions, even took classes at the local uni, which was taught by the Adult Sunday School teacher. He was and is a prof. of Religious studies and wrote the book Old Testament Parallels, which shows the relationship between Judaism and the surrounding religions at the time.  I won’t go through the whole journey, but if you ever encounter John Shelby Spong (retired Episcopal Bishop U.S.A.), Tom Harpur (Anglican priest, Canada), and even Robert Price’s books (Bob is an atheist, Humanist, and attends the Episcopal Church), you can figure out what I’ve learned and what I’ve been exposed to before I dropped out of the Episcopal Church due to being unable to believe the teachings in the services for the Vulgar.

In fact, I had many rants over the years before I left the church, in a priest’s office, concerning the barbarbic and cannibalistic practices of the church which originated with paganism (ie communion and Maundy Thursday/crucifixion).  What the priest said was, “If it bothers you that much than don’t participate.” She never once denied anything I said, just told me not to participate.  Well after a while, given that Holy Eucharist is every single Sunday and high holy day, even some lesser holy days, and the crucifixion senerio is not only played out on just Maundy Thursday, but other times as well, there were other things that caught my attention that just did not jive after I learned the esoteric.  Most only have the exoteric, but when you hang out with the higher ups and the religious scholars of the Church, you soon learn a lot more than you ever dreamed.  Some things that evangelicals like my mother would NEVER believe and even some atheists refuse to believe/acknowledge (or something).  Spong dabbles with telling people in his books, but Harpur comes right out and states a lot of it just with Horus alone.  Bob reveals quite a bit in his books, lectures, and alike.

Thus, when I mention even the slightest bit of knowledge, my mother goes off her rocker and begins the Inquisition.  It is heresy, in her opinion, even though it is the truth.  The thing is, when one takes that route, knowing the risks and still desiring to have their questions answered, it become impossible (at least for me) to believe in the god of religion- any religion.  Not to mention, to speak of it with people less educated about Christianity, esp family, can be hazardous to one’s psychological well-being, even in this day and age.

I don’t know if it’s better or worse than what you are experiencing, but I can say it’s no fun and feel for you.  I just wish I had some advice to give you on to handle it. I haven’t even learned to handle it very well- not yet at least.  We all come to our disbelief in different ways, of course, but in the end, trying to tell various family members can be very difficult with very little difference in experiences.  Sometimes avoiding the topic of religion with relatives is the best policy, regardless if they know your stance or not.  It saves on the heartache- whether it is from disbelief or from the psychological number they try to impose on the disbeliever.  I find I get sadden because of my mother and aunt’s behaviour, more than I am concerning my disbelief.  Unless you are certain it is your lack of belief that saddens you, you might want to explore the possibility that it is your father’s attitude that is causing you sadness.  I have found, with myself, more often than not, it is the reactions and behaviours of others that causes my sadness and not the lack of any belief.

I sincerely doubt that you will change your father’s mind, he’s had a faith for probably 50 years or more, you can’t change that with one conversation/argument.  So ask yourself why you want to have the conversation and what you hope to accomplish.  Is he a deeply religious person who would likely be aggravated by the sort of statement you made about not believing in God?  Did you really want to discuss religion or were you looking to push his buttons?  If it was really a family conflict, then the religious disagreement is a symptom, not the cause of your conflict. 

Are you trying to change his mind?  If so, you are probably wasting your time.  Think about this: is there any argument your father could use to change your mind?  Probably not, so what makes you think you can change his?  This kind of decision is made internally. 

If you really want to discuss the issue, ask questions and let him explain why he thinks what he thinks.  Find out what his beliefs are and use the socratic method, ask him questions about inconsistencies-- in a respectful manner.  People get upset when they think you don’t respect their views (I noticed from your email, it sounds like you may have thrown a few barbs yourself).  Be ready to answer his questions and answer by laying out why you are an atheist. 

He may have answers to your questions that are satisfactory to him.  If so, good for him.  Who is it hurting for him to be Catholic?  He may not acknowledge it at the time, but your questions may raise doubts.  If you truly want to have a conversation, don’t think in terms of winning the argument, think in terms of learning more about what he believes and explaining what you believe and why.

I’m not sure MereAlias is listening anymore. I hope all is well.