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Collective Humanism - Bringing in the Herd
Posted: 26 November 2008 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Is Humanism going to replace the police?

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Posted: 26 November 2008 08:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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George - 26 November 2008 07:32 AM
Socrate’s pupil - 26 November 2008 01:28 AM

Humanism is simply the desire and belief that man can live in harmony with his fellow man.

The desire part is fine. The belief in a good-natured man troubles me.

You, again, George! I had written you off!

Desire and belief you feel can’t go together, OK.

It is not nor has it anything to do with God or supernatural forces.
Man is man, a frightened animal and wants to live in security, in peace and in harmony.
We are trying to break with nature and the natural instinct to survive.

First we have laws, rules and regulations. We obviously need these.
But the violent, the clever and the rich go around these so easily.

But, eventually nature will out in the end.

But, in between times, we the weak, the poor and the simple want to live in security, in peace and in harmony.

Stay cool, George, explain calmly and gently my reasoning (if it be that) slowly.
Thanks, John

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Posted: 26 November 2008 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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George - 26 November 2008 08:20 AM

Is Humanism going to replace the police?

The bad police are a different problem. I have know groovy policemen!

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Posted: 26 November 2008 08:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Martinus - 26 November 2008 07:54 AM

Humanism is an obscure credo right now, orphaned from its Renaissance origins, and is too often confused with atheism. As an institution it is dwarfed by organized religion and nationalism and until we build up a body of thought, with consensus for its tenets the young will not take notice of it as a worldview option.

Our institutions (the law, science, Internet etc.) are what civilize us, and our species per se has no defender/critic against militarism and corruption as things stand. So we impoverish ourselves with weapons manufacturing, armies and police forces.

The prospect that we might in good time change this by supporting Humanism is a positive attitude, at least?

I am not arguing the semantics of the word - I gave you my starting definition.
You raise a good point on organized religion and jingoists- they will never accept us!

So how does America go wrong allowing the mentality of the Bushites into power? Yes, fear of the fanatics (Muslims), the totalitarian states and anyone who disagrees with our very Christian and very Democratic country - but how did we allow it?

Because the American people are (were) very insecure is the obvious answer. Why are we so damned insecure?
John

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Posted: 26 November 2008 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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So how does America go wrong allowing the mentality of the Bushites into power? Yes, fear of the fanatics (Muslims), the totalitarian states and anyone who disagrees with our very Christian and very Democratic country - but how did we allow it?

It is arguable that for the past eight years the US has been a quasi-totalitarian state. Cheney, the Pentagon’s unquestioned hegemony (who suggests cutting their budget - hello?), invasion, FOX network, jingoistic cheerleading from all quarters - to those of us outside the US (I’m in Canada) it was very disappointing.

With regard to George’s police mention, I was referring to the role of national police agencies in drug corruption, suppression of dissent etc.  While visiting my father in a Seattle hospital, I struck up a conversation with an off-duty prison guard also visiting a relative.

“What do you think of this meth epidemic?” I asked.
“Can’t make any money from the stuff” he said. ““It’s just dirt cheap.”

He was talking about himself and his co-workers, was not joking, very matter of fact.
As Tabel maintains “It’s worse than we think..”

[ Edited: 26 November 2008 09:01 AM by Martinus ]
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Posted: 26 November 2008 09:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Socrate’s pupil,

The violent, the clever and the rich go around the rules so easily because they are the ones who make the rules. Everybody (well, almost everybody) wants to live in peace and harmony, but not everybody will be able to. We often help the ones in need, but this is seldom done primarily for their benefit. Sure, we give glasses to those with a bad vision, but the only reason why this works is because we can sell them the glasses. Now, let’s say you make a good living on selling glasses. You buy a luxury car (or five of them), a big cottage, and a yacht. It’ll make you happier for some time, but eventually you’ll get used to it. So you move your company to China so that you can double your profit. By now your customers lost their jobs making glasses, and can’t no longer afford to buy them. All this is followed by a lot of nonsense, eventually resulting in some catastrophe, like a revolution or a war.

Except perhaps for Jesus, I am not aware of anybody who’s primary concern was the well being of others. Go ahead, Socrate’s pupil, sell your three-bedroom house, buy a small one-bedroom apartment and send the difference to the poor in Africa. Or are you going to blame the clever and rich ones with the sixteen-bedroom villas for the suffering of the poor and remain living your peaceful and harmonious life in the meantime? Hey, if you feel too guilty you can always send a $100 to a charity of your choice. For an additional effect you can call yourself a Humanist and tell everybody how much a man, the frightened animal, suffers.

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Posted: 26 November 2008 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Quote Socrate’s Pupil:

How can you get off on these tangents so easily?
Humanism is simply the desire and belief that man can live in harmony with his fellow man.
What has this to do with religion or other beliefs, color or other origins, levels of education, etc.
Can’t you people keep this simple and stay in and on a positive discussion?

I believe the members here think more broadly, and don’t feel the simplistic need to focus on the narrow interpretation of the topic some may ascribe.

You, again, George! I had written you off!

You have to be careful about George.  He often posts quite succinct posts that have a great deal of meaning because he uses metaphor, analogy, and humor.  However, I see that he was quite willing to explain his ideas in case one didn’t understand what he was saying in his earlier post.

Occam

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Posted: 26 November 2008 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Martinus - 26 November 2008 07:54 AM
George - 26 November 2008 07:32 AM
Socrate’s pupil - 26 November 2008 01:28 AM

Humanism is simply the desire and belief that man can live in harmony with his fellow man.

The desire part is fine. The belief in a good-natured man troubles me.

Did I say ‘good natured man’? I did not.
But I think that by and large the majority of men want to live in peace and harmony.
There are sadists and worse. There are also the greedy on the other end of the spectrum.
There must be controls on these extremes.

Religion and nationalism (and here in Europe they, especially the French, are trying their damnedest to regain their prestige as a block now called Europe) - a step in the wrong direction!

There are six billion believers in the world - good luck on bringing them around to atheism.

Splintering up the world in millions of states, religions, with Green Peace in control could be a good solution!

Humanism is an obscure credo right now, orphaned from its Renaissance origins, and is too often confused with atheism (Amen).
As an institution it is dwarfed by organized religion and nationalism and until we build up a body of thought, with consensus for its tenets the young will not take notice of it as a worldview option.

Let us quit harping on atheism and encourage organizations such as Green Peace.

The greatest threat is the Church of Rome who, for 1700 years, has never given up the idea of bringing all under their fold.

Our institutions (the law, science, Internet etc.) are what civilize us, and our species per se has no defender/critic against militarism and corruption as things stand. So we impoverish ourselves with weapons manufacturing, armies and police forces.
This is all too well known.

The prospect that we might in good time change this by supporting Humanism is a positive attitude, at least?

Yes along with these other positive ecological organizations.

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Posted: 26 November 2008 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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From Socrates’ Pupil:

Religion and nationalism (and here in Europe they, especially the French, are trying their damnedest to regain their prestige as a block now called Europe) - a step in the wrong direction!

There are six billion believers in the world - good luck on bringing them around to atheism.

Splintering up the world in millions of states, religions, with Green Peace in control could be a good solution! ]

Am I wrong, or is nationalism taken for granted these days and not much discussed? Do the young even know the concept? Of course being raised in the 50’s we were taught that it could bring bad things (2 world wars within 21 years..)

As agreed, the 6 billion believers can keep on believing, Humanists don’t care what you believe, so long as you support our own kind and its prospects. But try to tell that to the BHA or the IHEU…hooboy.

If every country, or province, or state became like a Swiss canton, governed and secured by the UN, would that work? And if Humanists are respected critics for our species and planet, could we retire Greenpeace and appoint a whale as our guardian? grin Betcha it would work.. But seriously, if we identify and eliminate antihuman activities (weapons mfg, political corruption, murdering sister species..) then Humanism should suffice.

It might be nice to fire the kids’ imagination at the same time, and give the transHumanists some air time. Always helps to keep an eye on the future, and what if the “Singularity” actually comes to pass?  D’oh!

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Posted: 26 November 2008 12:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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George - 26 November 2008 09:12 AM

Socrate’s pupil,

The violent, the clever and the rich go around the rules so easily because they are the ones who make the rules. Everybody (well, almost everybody) wants to live in peace and harmony, but not everybody will be able to. We often help the ones in need, but this is seldom done primarily for their benefit. Sure, we give glasses to those with a bad vision, but the only reason why this works is because we can sell them the glasses. Now, let’s say you make a good living on selling glasses. You buy a luxury car (or five of them), a big cottage, and a yacht. It’ll make you happier for some time, but eventually you’ll get used to it. So you move your company to China so that you can double your profit. By now your customers lost their jobs making glasses, and can’t no longer afford to buy them. All this is followed by a lot of nonsense, eventually resulting in some catastrophe, like a revolution or a war.

Except perhaps for Jesus, I am not aware of anybody who’s primary concern was the well being of others. Go ahead, Socrate’s pupil, sell your three-bedroom house, buy a small one-bedroom apartment and send the difference to the poor in Africa. Or are you going to blame the clever and rich ones with the sixteen-bedroom villas for the suffering of the poor and remain living your peaceful and harmonious life in the meantime? Hey, if you feel too guilty you can always send a $100 to a charity of your choice. For an additional effect you can call yourself a Humanist and tell everybody how much a man, the frightened animal, suffers.

How did you know I had a three bedroom house?  Actually, it is my wife’s. (Yes, I know the song by Louis Prima!)
All what you’re saying about the dynamics of making money is true and how to change these forces is the problem. For if Bill Gates had slowed down he would have been a pauper today - eaten up by the more agressive.
Speaking of Jesus he makes me think of the Flower Children - they were so beautiful.
I really don’t feel guilty at all. Don’t get carried away, George. We are speaking of changing the world, right?
I have the feeling that all on this site are after the same thing - peace on earth and goodwill to all man.

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Posted: 26 November 2008 12:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Martinus - 26 November 2008 12:24 PM

From Socrates’ Pupil:

Religion and nationalism (and here in Europe they, especially the French, are trying their damnedest to regain their prestige as a block now called Europe) - a step in the wrong direction!

There are six billion believers in the world - good luck on bringing them around to atheism.

Splintering up the world in millions of states, religions, with Green Peace in control could be a good solution! ]

Am I wrong, or is nationalism taken for granted these days and not much discussed? Do the young even know the concept? Of course being raised in the 50’s we were taught that it could bring bad things (2 world wars within 21 years..)

As agreed, the 6 billion believers can keep on believing, Humanists don’t care what you believe, so long as you support our own kind and its prospects. But try to tell that to the BHA or the IHEU…hooboy.

If every country, or province, or state became like a Swiss canton, governed and secured by the UN, would that work? And if Humanists are respected critics for our species and planet, could we retire Greenpeace and appoint a whale as our guardian? grin Betcha it would work.. But seriously, if we identify and eliminate antihuman activities (weapons mfg, political corruption, murdering sister species..) then Humanism should suffice.

It might be nice to fire the kids’ imagination at the same time, and give the transHumanists some air time. Always helps to keep an eye on the future, and what if the “Singularity” actually comes to pass?  D’oh!

You could easily say that the world wars were caused by French hegemony. Alsace and Lorraine were annexed in 1648.
Of course the English had some blame in the matter. The French are trying to blame us for WWII - “it was all Wilson’s fault!”.
A half million American boys lost their lives in that war! It all gets so complcated! It has nothing to do with us and today. These ideas of Humanism, Ecological organizations, Green Peace are really steps in the right direction. Let’s leave personal beliefs out of this. George brought up Capitalism - how do we control its accesses? What about all of those Lobbyists in Washington? How did they ever get such power? How do you fight this for we are all a part of it as consummers.

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Posted: 26 November 2008 12:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Socrate’s pupil - 26 November 2008 12:26 PM

I have the feeling that all on this site are after the same thing - peace on earth and goodwill to all man.

And that certainly seems to be the trend if we look at our violent past and compare it with the, well, “almost peaceful” present. The question though is: are we consciously making this happen based on some deliberate decisions or is non-violence simply more advantageous in Darwinian terms? I believe it is the later one and that makes me optimistic to think that one day we might really find a heaven on earth—or something as close to it as possible. And if this is a universal trait in the whole cosmos, maybe there is even a chance that one day even an all-loving God will be born.

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Posted: 26 November 2008 12:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Occam - 26 November 2008 10:15 AM

Quote Socrate’s Pupil:

How can you get off on these tangents so easily?
Humanism is simply the desire and belief that man can live in harmony with his fellow man.
What has this to do with religion or other beliefs, color or other origins, levels of education, etc.
Can’t you people keep this simple and stay in and on a positive discussion?

I believe the members here think more broadly, and don’t feel the simplistic need to focus on the narrow interpretation of the topic some may ascribe.

You, again, George! I had written you off!

You have to be careful about George.  He often posts quite succinct posts that have a great deal of meaning because he uses metaphor, analogy, and humor.  However, I see that he was quite willing to explain his ideas in case one didn’t understand what he was saying in his earlier post.

Occam

I just picked up your message, Occam - I am not good at this - too many messages coming at the same time. Yes, I think that George is more sohisticated than I am. So he has to slow down while speaking to me (or just ignore me).

I also have the feeling that I don’t quite understand how this site is supposed to function. I am coming off too simplisticly, I feel, and am in the wrong ball game. What is your advice, Occam?

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Posted: 26 November 2008 12:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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I am not sophisticated at all, John. I actually think of myself on this forum as the cheapest house in a very expensive neighborhood.

And if you want I’ll give you an advice on how to navigate yourself on this site: treat it as if it was a real life! We are, after all, all humans—well, except maybe for Doug who will never get angry and is probably never wrong.

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Posted: 26 November 2008 01:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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George - 26 November 2008 12:57 PM

And if you want I’ll give you an advice on how to navigate yourself on this site: treat it as if it was a real life! We are, after all, all humans—well, except maybe for Doug who will never get angry and is probably never wrong.

LOL

I wish it were true ...

But your advice for the site is good, George!

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