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UFOs detonating nukes?
Posted: 22 September 2008 12:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Rramjet - 22 September 2008 12:25 AM

Oops - I forgot to add you would need to obtain independent verification of your calculations - but again, I congratulate you on showing us the way.

There was actually a piece on TV with two Brits showing how they made the crop circles. It looked pretty easy, more time in the planning than the execution, meanwhile…...from Wiki:

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Crop-Circle

And from google:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS264US265&q=making++a+crop+circle&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#
[edit: the guy in this video is a little weird]

[ Edited: 22 September 2008 12:58 AM by asanta ]
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Posted: 22 September 2008 03:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Thanks for those links asanta. Something I find rather perplexing though. – following from those links I discovered a few websites where various people claim to have formed crop circle “groups” (eg: http://www.circlemakers.org/totc2007.html).  Two things struck me about these sites (and in particular the site I have linked here):

1.  There is evident the general derisory and ridiculing tone of the hard core debunker (al la Randi et al) – which immediately puts one on edge and creates a suspicion that something is not quite right.
2.  Although much is made of the ability of people to create even the most complex of circles – nowhere is presented a complex circle with the tag “We did this, this is how we did it, here is the equipment list, here are the preliminary designs, this is how long it took us… etc”.

Why? What is wrong with these people? Derisory debunkers backed by no hard evidence? Where have I heard this before? If these people are so proud and “out there” concerning their own abilities, surely they would want to claim at least ONE circle as their own. Yet complete silence. This is extremely frustrating and suspicious. I look for the final nail in the coffin… and it is not there!

At this point I will reveal that I personally would believe crop-circles to be entirely and directly of human manufacture (if someone came to me and requested a do or die decision – it would have to be “human!”)  – but I just cannot seem to find the direct evidence for it! No complete methodological analysis. No unequivocal personal claim of authorship of a complex design… so the purist within me wins over and my skeptical side disallows this as a firm conclusion.

As a general observation on the whole paranormal thing, I find the debunkers whole approach (Randi, Nickell, et al) objectionable and their pronouncements (often) rabidly uncritical and anti-rational. At the same time I find claims of alien intervention, ghosts, etc equally irrational. Somewhere there must be a rational analysis of the paranormal, some truly rational, scientifically based analytical opinion ...

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Posted: 22 September 2008 05:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Rramjet - 22 September 2008 03:37 AM

Thanks for those links asanta. Something I find rather perplexing though. – following from those links I discovered a f
2.  Although much is made of the ability of people to create even the most complex of circles – nowhere is presented a complex circle with the tag “We did this, this is how we did it, here is the equipment list, here are the preliminary designs, this is how long it took us… etc”.

Why? What is wrong with these people? Derisory debunkers backed by no hard evidence? Where have I heard this before? If these people are so proud and “out there” concerning their own abilities, surely they would want to claim at least ONE circle as their own. Yet complete silence. This is extremely frustrating and suspicious. I look for the final nail in the coffin… and it is not there!

Because what they are doing is ILLEGAL, they would be ARRESTED and SUED and probably fined and convicted, you did not read the first link. In creating the circles, they destroy a lot of grain, leaving very unhappy farmers who would love to have a name to prosecute and recoup their losses.

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Posted: 22 September 2008 06:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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I would expect that these are mostly pranks by local farmers or students. One friend of mine even suggested that they could be done by people who rent out small planes and helicopters.

Not sure that enough grain is destroyed to make a farmer very angry, although admittedly if one were angry enough I suppose he might consider prosecution. In the scheme of things, the court case would almost certainly cost him more than the loss of grain.

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Posted: 22 September 2008 08:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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You need to explain two more things (I reserve the right to add others but we are at least progressing very positively). First and most easily accomplished I presume (but critically) is an analysis of the exact amount of time it would actually take using your chosen methodology. Second, and more difficult because it may be (although I dare not presume) beyond the scope of your expertise, is a physical analysis of just how easily it is to get every single stalk of grain to lay over in precise patterns.

I can’t meet either of your requirements. Such information could only be obtained by actually making a crop circle. I don’t have that kind of spare time.

However, I think we are all in fundamental agreement: the best hypothesis for explaining crop circles is the hoax hypothesis. You’re quite right in declaring that we have not yet developed compelling evidence in favor of this hypothesis. I think our disagreement lies in the fact that you demand compelling evidence whereas the scientific method does not. The scientific method acknowledges the limits of knowledge and permits us to accept an hypothesis based on the difference between its supporting evidence and the supporting evidence for competing hypotheses. Even if you put up a weak hypothesis against a whole bunch of absurd hypotheses, you still put your money on the weak one.

At the same time, we NEVER declare “case closed” on any hypothesis, because we never obtain evidence amounting to absolute proof. With some hypotheses, such as Darwin’s, we assemble such a huge volume of evidence that we consider the hypothesis just one step shy of proven. With the crop circle hoax hypothesis, I agree that the evidence in favor of the hypothesis is far from compelling. If for some reason, vast significance lay in the hoax hypothesis (e.g. “the Fate of Humanity Is At Stake!!!”), then I too would demand a higher standard of corroborating evidence. However, given that the whole thing is really rather inconsequential, I think it prudent to simply wave it aside as most likely a series of hoaxes. However, I retain the scientist’s open-mindedness. I do not consider the hoax hypothesis as proven or compelling. It’s the best we’ve got so far and so I’m willing to hang my hat on it. But if new evidence emerges, I’ll consider it and perhaps alter my assessment.

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Posted: 22 September 2008 02:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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dougsmith - 22 September 2008 06:40 AM

I would expect that these are mostly pranks by local farmers or students. One friend of mine even suggested that they could be done by people who rent out small planes and helicopters.

That would make it a rather expensive prank, gasoline prices being what they are now.  You’re probably correct about the farm boys—idle hands and all—they would know where the best fields were and which would be left alone for the time they needed.

Not sure that enough grain is destroyed to make a farmer very angry, although admittedly if one were angry enough I suppose he might consider prosecution. In the scheme of things, the court case would almost certainly cost him more than the loss of grain.

The grain losses would be magnified by the idiots traipsing through the fields to see ‘the miracles the aliens hath wrought’! LOL

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Posted: 22 September 2008 02:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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asanta - 22 September 2008 02:25 PM
dougsmith - 22 September 2008 06:40 AM

I would expect that these are mostly pranks by local farmers or students. One friend of mine even suggested that they could be done by people who rent out small planes and helicopters.

That would make it a rather expensive prank, gasoline prices being what they are now.  You’re probably correct about the farm boys—idle hands and all—they would know where the best fields were and which would be left alone for the time they needed.

Well, that wasn’t quite what I meant. The folks who made the crop circles will then tell all the journalists and woo-meisters in the area that they need to rent their new shiny plane to get the best view of the new ones ...

Admittedly, this is just idle speculation.

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Posted: 22 September 2008 02:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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dougsmith - 22 September 2008 02:27 PM

Well, that wasn’t quite what I meant. The folks who made the crop circles will then tell all the journalists and woo-meisters in the area that they need to rent their new shiny plane to get the best view of the new ones ...

Admittedly, this is just idle speculation.

I’m sure someone somewhere has thought of renting out their planes for sightseeing the crop circles they made for that purpose!
That would be a GREAT money making scheme! I would have never thought of doing that—I’m just not that devious!

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Posted: 22 September 2008 03:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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asanta - 22 September 2008 02:33 PM

I’m sure someone somewhere has thought of renting out their planes for sightseeing the crop circles they made for that purpose!
That would be a GREAT money making scheme! I would have never thought of doing that—I’m just not that devious!

Actually, it’s the ALIENS who rent out the airplanes. They have these super doodads for making crop circles on their home planet, which are very valuable, but here on earth their crop-circle making machines can’t pay their costs, so they make artistic-looking crop circles and rent out airplanes to view them.

However, it’s not a terribly profitable operation because they have to pay a piece of the action to the Illuminati…

wink

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Posted: 22 September 2008 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Chris Crawford - 22 September 2008 03:06 PM

Actually, it’s the ALIENS who rent out the airplanes. They have these super doodads for making crop circles on their home planet, which are very valuable, but here on earth their crop-circle making machines can’t pay their costs, so they make artistic-looking crop circles and rent out airplanes to view them.

However, it’s not a terribly profitable operation because they have to pay a piece of the action to the Illuminati…

wink

LOL ROFLOL!

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Posted: 22 September 2008 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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asanta - 22 September 2008 02:33 PM
dougsmith - 22 September 2008 02:27 PM

Well, that wasn’t quite what I meant. The folks who made the crop circles will then tell all the journalists and woo-meisters in the area that they need to rent their new shiny plane to get the best view of the new ones ...

Admittedly, this is just idle speculation.

I’m sure someone somewhere has thought of renting out their planes for sightseeing the crop circles they made for that purpose!
That would be a GREAT money making scheme! I would have never thought of doing that—I’m just not that devious!

Speak no further! Crop circles offer straight line to success  LOL

‘It makes me chuckle sometimes,” says John Lundberg, gazing across a wheat field in central England. “If somebody had said to me 10 years ago that today I’d be flying all over the world making crop circles for big companies and being paid for it, I’d have said they were mad.”

“Landowners benefit too, receiving payments from the companies or circle-makers for allowing their fields to be used. The income easily covers the damage to crops, leaving farmers with a profit. Unlike the lucrative commercial ventures, night raids by circle makers acting as free agents irritate many farmers. The most recent crop circle appeared on Friday near Marlborough in Wiltshire, the county that spawns 80 percent of Britain’s crop circles. Neighbours said the landowner was furious.”

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Posted: 22 September 2008 03:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Jules - 22 September 2008 03:20 PM
asanta - 22 September 2008 02:33 PM
dougsmith - 22 September 2008 02:27 PM

Well, that wasn’t quite what I meant. The folks who made the crop circles will then tell all the journalists and woo-meisters in the area that they need to rent their new shiny plane to get the best view of the new ones ...

Admittedly, this is just idle speculation.

I’m sure someone somewhere has thought of renting out their planes for sightseeing the crop circles they made for that purpose!
That would be a GREAT money making scheme! I would have never thought of doing that—I’m just not that devious!

Speak no further! Crop circles offer straight line to success  LOL

Bingo! Thanks Jules!

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Posted: 22 September 2008 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Jules - 22 September 2008 03:20 PM

[quote author=“dougsmith” ]

Speak no further! Crop circles offer straight line to success  LOL

Bingo! Thanks Jules!

But WAIT!!!! that doesn’t explain the UNCLAIMED crop circles, you have to admit….those MUST have been done by aliens! cool smile

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Posted: 22 September 2008 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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wink

I love this quote from one of the “original” crop circle makers from years and years ago,

“Bowers, now 80, is surprised at the commercial turn of late. “We just wanted people to think that a UFO had landed in a field, when it was really just two blokes with a plank of wood,” he said. “And it worked a treat. We’d make the crop circles and crowds would come to see them. We used to mingle with them and listen to what they were saying, all these so-called UFO experts spouting off about aliens. We would look at each and burst out laughing.”

LOL

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Posted: 24 September 2008 05:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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At least we know technologically superior aliens prefer Firefox.

Youtube video: How to make complex crop circles Hint: you need advanced rope & pieces of wood technology

Personally I don’t see what’s so far-fetched about the alien-pyramid hypothesis. Surely advanced beings from across the galaxy would share important technologies like how to pile big rocks in interesting ways but not trivial, useless materials like paper or plastic.. not stupid ideas like sanitation, medicine, etc..,

Certainly said beings who had interacted with man for millenia would have to wait for Sagan’s arcane picto-gram to tell them what we’re like and subsequently have no way to respond other than by mimicing the effect of a handful of rope-weilding humans in a wheat field. What’s so strange about that?

In Fox’s “World’s Greatest Hoaxes: Secrets Finally Revealed” (1999) I think host Judd Nelson said it best (after video of men constructing complex crop circle in a couple hours with boards and rope): If aliens are indeed producing crop circles… they are doing it the hard way.

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