2 of 3
2
Art and Science
Posted: 25 February 2006 08:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  196
Joined  2006-02-09

Art and science

Alan:

Thanks for the post!  I really think we have it surrounded!  :D

What about emotion in scientific research?

When I am doing research I get excited.  When I look at data and see a trend, I get excited.  Many researchers who use math are fond of saying how the solution is “elegant”  or “beautiful.”  Clearly emotions play a very important role in motivating scientific research.

Your thoughts?

Warm regards, Wes

 Signature 

Fairness is Justice

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 March 2006 11:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  268
Joined  2006-02-08

Re: Art and science

[quote author=“wesmjohnson”]Alan

Thanks for the post!  I really think we have it surrounded!  D

What about emotion in scientific research?

When I am doing research I get excited.  When I look at data and see a trend, I get excited.  Many researchers who use math are fond of saying how the solution is “elegant”  or “beautiful.”  Clearly emotions play a very important role in motivating scientific research.

Your thoughts?

Warm regards, Wes

———-

Wes,
I think “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. Agree?
  I don’t think it’s possible for anyone to be completely objective about anything—and that includeds scientists. Agree?
  “We are inspired by art and instructed by science”—AHA.

Bob

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 March 2006 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  268
Joined  2006-02-08

Re: Art and science

[quote author=“wesmjohnson”]Alan

Thanks for the post!  I really think we have it surrounded!  D

What about emotion in scientific research?

When I am doing research I get excited.  When I look at data and see a trend, I get excited.  Many researchers who use math are fond of saying how the solution is “elegant”  or “beautiful.”  Clearly emotions play a very important role in motivating scientific research.

Your thoughts?

Warm regards, Wes

———-

Wes,
I think “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. Agree?
  I don’t think it’s possible for anyone to be completely objective about anything—and that includeds scientists. Agree?
  “We are inspired by art and instructed by science”—AHA.

Bob

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 March 2006 12:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  196
Joined  2006-02-09

Art & Science

Bob, you wrote: <I think “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. Agree?
I don’t think it’s possible for anyone to be completely objective about anything—and that includeds scientists. Agree?
“We are inspired by art and instructed by science”—AHA.>

That is another way to say it.  There are biases everywhere.  However, the method of science is the only way we currently have to minimize them.  When I perform an experiment that someone else has performed before, I may find a different result.  As more and more experiments by different people are performed the “truth” will come out devoid of bias.

A large part of my earlier point was that science is fun and beyond.  The process of doing science is enlightening and expanding.  Solutions to problems are most times wonderful.  It necessarily must be so because emotional human beings (redundant) do science.  If it was not fun they would not do it!  :D :D :D

Warm and happy regards, Wes

 Signature 

Fairness is Justice

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 March 2006 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  268
Joined  2006-02-08

Re: Art & Science

Wes wrote:“When I perform an experiment that someone else has performed before, I may find a different result.  As more and more experiments by different people are performed the “truth” will come out devoid of bias.”


Wes,
You are optimistic about the end result. Unfortunately I do not share your optimism.
I agree that science is fun. It would be wonderful if more people thought it was. Ways must be devised to educate people as to how much fun it can be. There just aren’t enough people in the World like us.
Bob


\

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 March 2006 02:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  196
Joined  2006-02-09

Bob, you wrote: <Wes,
You are optimistic about the end result. Unfortunately I do not share your optimism.
I agree that science is fun. It would be wonderful if more people thought it was. Ways must be devised to educate people as to how much fun it can be. There just aren’t enough people in the World like us.
Bob>


I am confused.  :?  All I said was that science was fun.  I know it and you know it.  But I am not sure about what you think I am optimistic. 

In this country I am not at all optimistic about young people taking to science or engineering.  There is no longer a cultural or political will for acquision of knowledge.  It is all about entertainment and money.  So, if you thought I was optimistic on that front, I am not.  However, I am optimistic about the state of science in the World.  Many other countries are graduating lots of scientists and engineers.  America will eventually lag behind and we will have our corporations and politicians to blame.

Anecdotally, I am looking for 2 graduate students in my Spine Biomechanics Laboratory.  I have the funding for several projects and have advertised nationally and internationally.  The result has been only Indians, Iranians, and Pakistanis have applied.

Wes

 Signature 

Fairness is Justice

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 March 2006 04:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15368
Joined  2006-02-14

[quote author=“wesmjohnson”]Anecdotally, I am looking for 2 graduate students in my Spine Biomechanics Laboratory.  I have the funding for several projects and have advertised nationally and internationally.  The result has been only Indians, Iranians, and Pakistanis have applied.

Wes

Interestingly, I am involved with a small chemical screening laboratory. Our chairman has told me we had the same problem: when hiring, all the best people were Chinese. The Americans generally had too high an opinion of their abilities and value.

Of course, my opinion is always to hire the best. In the past the US has been very lucky to attract highly intelligent, capable and motivated people from other countries to learn and work here. If Americans aren’t going to learn sciences we will need that to continue ...

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 March 2006 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  196
Joined  2006-02-09

Dougsmith, you wrote:

<Interestingly, I am involved with a small chemical screening laboratory. Our chairman has told me we had the same problem: when hiring, all the best people were Chinese. The Americans generally had too high an opinion of their abilities and value.

Of course, my opinion is always to hire the best. In the past the US has been very lucky to attract highly intelligent, capable and motivated people from other countries to learn and work here. If Americans aren’t going to learn sciences we will need that to continue…>

Doug:  Yes of course hire the best and if that means from off shore then so be it.  My lament is that at one time Americans were the best.  Alas, we keep slipping.  The current Administration including all of Congress are in general low educated or Lawyers.  They know nothing of science and engineering and that includes the M.D.s.  It is a shame that scientists and engineers do not feel compelled to seek political office.  I think there is a message there.  :(  :(

You mentioned that the Americans had “too high opinion of their abilities and value.”  A company would try to obtain the best workers for the lowest price - right?  That’s business - control salaries, maximize profit!  That’s it!  :(  :(

Regards, Wes

 Signature 

Fairness is Justice

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 March 2006 03:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15368
Joined  2006-02-14

Hi Wes,

Well, I don’t think any of these people were strictly “offshore” ... I believe they were working or studying in the US, although the principle is the same.

The overarching concern is that with a public that is scientifically illiterate and a government that is actively hostile to science, there is very little hope of any national policies that will attempt to stem the tide. I believe that the party in power now is aiming for a modified sort of theocracy. In many parts of the country it has already been achieved.

:(

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 March 2006 04:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  268
Joined  2006-02-08

The U.S. vs. Science

Doug wrote
“The overarching concern is that with a public that is scientifically illiterate and a government that is actively hostile to science, there is very little hope of any national policies that will attempt to stem the tide. I believe that the party in power now is aiming for a modified sort of theocracy. In many parts of the country it has already been achieved.”

Doug,
I agree with what you said and it’s all very depressing.
Bob

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 March 2006 04:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  268
Joined  2006-02-08

Re: Art & Science

Wes wrote"When I perform an experiment that someone else has performed before, I may find a different result.  As more and more experiments by different people are performed the “truth” will come out devoid of bias.”

Wes,
I was refering to “the ‘truth’ will come out devoid of bias.” I think that’s being optimistic.
Bob

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 March 2006 02:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  196
Joined  2006-02-09

Re: Art & Science

[quote author=“Bob”]Wes wrote:“When I perform an experiment that someone else has performed before, I may find a different result.  As more and more experiments by different people are performed the “truth” will come out devoid of bias.”

Wes,
I was refering to “the ‘truth’ will come out devoid of bias.” I think that’s being optimistic.
Bob

Bob:  Please explain why you see it as optimistic.  smile

Wes

 Signature 

Fairness is Justice

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 March 2006 04:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15368
Joined  2006-02-14

Perhaps it’s that the theories will get asymptotically closer to the truth, given good (bias-free) experimental evidence.

Newton’s Laws of Motion are for all intents and purposes true at slow speeds, low gravitation, with mid-size objects. After all, they got us to the Moon!

But they do break down at the edges ... where we need Einstein or Quantum Mechanics ...

There are edges where those two theories are not easily compatible, as I understand it with gravity in particular.

But surely the theories are closing in on truth, getting better at prediction and explanation along the way.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 March 2006 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  196
Joined  2006-02-09

Art and Science

Dougsmith wrote: <The overarching concern is that with a public that is scientifically illiterate and a government that is actively hostile to science, there is very little hope of any national policies that will attempt to stem the tide. I believe that the party in power now is aiming for a modified sort of theocracy. In many parts of the country it has already been achieved.>

I am also saddened by the seemingly unstoppable direction in which our country is heading.  I have been giving more and more thought of emigrating to Costa Rica and teaching at university there.  :(  :(  :(

Wes

 Signature 

Fairness is Justice

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 March 2006 11:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  196
Joined  2006-02-09

[quote author=“dougsmith”]Perhaps it’s that the theories will get asymptotically closer to the truth, given good (bias-free) experimental evidence.

Newton’s Laws of Motion are for all intents and purposes true at slow speeds, low gravitation, with mid-size objects. After all, they got us to the Moon!

But they do break down at the edges ... where we need Einstein or Quantum Mechanics ...

There are edges where those two theories are not easily compatible, as I understand it with gravity in particular.

But surely the theories are closing in on truth, getting better at prediction and explanation along the way.

Bob:  Doug has a handle on truth.  I am optimistic about the method of science in finding “truth.”  :D :D

Wes

 Signature 

Fairness is Justice

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 3
2
 
     Human Evolution ››