Many people think god’s intervention will save loved ones.
Posted: 18 August 2008 06:35 PM   [ Ignore ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11

Many people have more faith in god’s ability to perform a miracle to revive loved ones, than in doctors assessment of a ‘hopeless’ situation.
I’ve run into this many times in my years of nursing. I’ve run into people on the opposite side, where people will pray for someone with a compatible organ to die, so as to provide their loved one with a chance to live. I have to remind these people that the organ donor families also loved their family member and are giving a great gift in a moment of their greatest despair.

Any comments on the article?


http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20080818/MED.God.vs.Doctors/

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2008 06:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5508
Joined  2006-10-22

First, scary thing was that 20% of doctors and medical personnel thought prayer and god can fix untreatable medical problems.

Second, their survey was of 1000 contacts by telephone.  I would guess that the more highly educated people are more likely to have message machines or services so less likely to be part of the survey.

The worst part of it is that people recover from over 95% of their illnesses, even without professional care.  That allows the following theostic logic.

So, “My relatives have gotten sick twenty times and I’ve prayed to god.  He answered my prayers nineteen times.  I guess we must have done something wrong and got punished the time great-grampa died.”

Occam

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2008 07:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11

Yes, and the article brings to mind the thread on the woman who was supposedly ‘dead’ for 17 hours.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2008 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4108
Joined  2006-11-28

I saw that article as well. Of course, with one of the authors an Episcopal priest, it is pretty suspect to begin with. Still, they seemed to be arguing primarily that since people feel this way, doctors have to address these feelings carefully if they;re trying to convince families that a loved-one’s situation is hopeless. In my business, it is not unusual for a client to bring in a pet with what they think is a minor problem and for me to discover advanced, terminal cancer. I find that they are almost never ready to go ahead with euthanasia at that visit, even if it is rationally the right thing to do. A day or two of adjusting ot the shock, and most will come to the right conclusion. It sounds like this article is ultimatley saying the same thing-that we have to give people time to adapt to the inevitable, and if we push them too hard they’ll just insist on “holding out for a miracle.”

 Signature 

The SkeptVet Blog
You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place. 
Johnathan Swift

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2008 07:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11

I took care of a 19 year old motorcycle accident victim who died of a devastating head injury on Mother’s day. The mother was so distraught, she was sure there would be a miracle and would not allow the MDs to disconnect the life support, even as the young man bloated past any recognition, and was actually rotting. The unit acquired an overwhelmingly nauseating odor of decomposition. We continued with the man on the ventilator, on epi, norepi TPN etc. to keep him ‘alive’ until the mother could accept that god was not going to provide a miracle. Of course at the point when all of the futility of our effort presented itself in the form of a cardiac arrest—-the mother insisted that we ‘code’ him as a full code. This was nearly 30 years ago, and I still remember it as if it were yesterday.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2008 07:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  669
Joined  2008-07-03

“Motor bike rider - definition: Organ donor”.

I saw a girl lose it on a hairpin turn - she was wearing shorts and flip flops and hit some sand. Fortunately she wasn’t hurt but she could have had some horrid scrapes up her legs.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2008 07:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7613
Joined  2007-03-02
asanta - 18 August 2008 06:35 PM

I’ve run into people on the opposite side, where people will pray for someone with a compatible organ to die, so as to provide their loved one with a chance to live.

You know that is rather frightening.  They ask God to kill someone.  Thus, if God killed someone, their loved one would live?  That is just sick!  And how do they know the transplant would not be rejected or even fail just because it is compatible?  Because they believe God said so via killing said person?  What sort of logic is that?  How do they know the other person is less important than their loved one?  Makes no sense at all. What if the compatible person is another one of their loved ones?  How would they feel then?  Makes no sense to wish someone dead so another can live, but I’ll stop there before I say something I shouldn’t.

 Signature 

Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2008 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
A Voice of Sanity - 18 August 2008 07:21 PM

“Motor bike rider - definition: Organ donor”.

Not if the family is waiting patiently for god to miraculously raise them from the dead. oh oh

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2008 07:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
Mriana - 18 August 2008 07:37 PM
asanta - 18 August 2008 06:35 PM

I’ve run into people on the opposite side, where people will pray for someone with a compatible organ to die, so as to provide their loved one with a chance to live.

You know that is rather frightening.  They ask God to kill someone.  Thus, if God killed someone, their loved one would live?  That is just sick!  And how do they know the transplant would not be rejected or even fail just because it is compatible?  Because they believe God said so via killing said person?  What sort of logic is that?  How do they know the other person is less important than their loved one?  Makes no sense at all. What if the compatible person is another one of their loved ones?  How would they feel then?  Makes no sense to wish someone dead so another can live, but I’ll stop there before I say something I shouldn’t.

It is inappropriate for me to tell them what I truly think of their prayers (even if I do believe them to be magical wishing on their part). I have to continueously emphasize the fact that someone else’s LOVED ONE will die, and the family will at that time, be GENEROUS enough to offer your loved one, the gift of life, even as they greive their loss. I ask them if they could do the same. Some families become frustrated;“we’ve been here X weeks, why hasn’t _____been transplanted yet?” To which I reply,“because we don’t have a back supply in our refrigerator!”, you wouldn’t believe how difficult it is at times to bite my tongue!

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2008 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7613
Joined  2007-03-02

Sometimes I think saying nothing is better, but the last question would be more difficult to say nothing.  That has to be answered.  Not sure if there is a good way to answer that though.

 Signature 

Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2008 08:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  669
Joined  2008-07-03
asanta - 18 August 2008 06:35 PM

I’ve run into people on the opposite side, where people will pray for someone with a compatible organ to die, so as to provide their loved one with a chance to live.

Mriana - 18 August 2008 07:37 PM

You know that is rather frightening.  They ask God to kill someone.  Thus, if God killed someone, their loved one would live?  That is just sick!  And how do they know the transplant would not be rejected or even fail just because it is compatible?  Because they believe God said so via killing said person?  What sort of logic is that?  How do they know the other person is less important than their loved one?  Makes no sense at all. What if the compatible person is another one of their loved ones?  How would they feel then?  Makes no sense to wish someone dead so another can live, but I’ll stop there before I say something I shouldn’t.

Waste not want not - or as the marriage counselor said to the annoyed husband, “If you don’t want her I’ll have her”.

But as I have said, many are ‘Christian’ as long as it doesn’t cost them much. I always assumed that (Mr) Fred Rogers was a non theist since he was such a nice man. I was surprised to find out he was a Presbyterian minister - which, IMO, tells you a lot. He certainly walked the walk.

There is an argument whether this happened - but it may have: Apparently, Rogers had been driving the same car for years, an old second-hand Impala. Then it was stolen from its parking spot near the WQED studio. Rogers filed a police report, the story was picked up by local news outlets, and general shock swept across town. Within 48 hours, the car was back in the spot where he left it, along with a note saying, “If we’d known it was yours, we never would have taken it!”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 October 2008 09:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  17
Joined  2008-10-01

Didn’t the Mayo clinic and Harvard do a study on the effectiveness of prayer on cancer patients.

If i remember correctly it showed a disadvantage for those who knew they where being prayed for, i have heard of other studies that showed positive results however i think the authenticity of the studies was in question.

Anyone know of any legitimate studies that have shown an advantage for prayer?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 October 2008 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  71
Joined  2008-09-18

It’s probable you all are already aware of this site but if not. Why won’t God heal amputees?

They seemed to have moved or deleted the article in question.

[ Edited: 31 October 2008 01:59 PM by Grayscale ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 October 2008 03:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
Grayscale - 31 October 2008 01:52 PM

It’s probable you all are already aware of this site but if not. Why won’t God heal amputees?

They seemed to have moved or deleted the article in question.

Too bad, yes I’d read it…...more people should think about what it pointed out. I’ve yet to see a study where the proponents organized prayer groups to regrow a limb on (even) a ‘worthy’ veteran (the worthy in quotations is not to imply the person is NOT worthy, but to designate someone who would be a noncontroversial recipient of this ‘largess’.).

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
   
 
 
‹‹ Quackcast      Miracle Light Water...What? ››