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The worst news ever
Posted: 30 August 2008 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]
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http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=9387790

Ok my title is melodramatic and probably isn’t even true but this is just so bad.

The depressed side of me can’t help thinking, nothing at all is better than this. I’m in tears.

Stephen

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Posted: 30 August 2008 12:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Wicked World sick

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Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

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Posted: 30 August 2008 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Our society does a great job of depriving the poor and most minorities of any sort of decent education and training in ethics and reasoning.  The kids grow up witthout a rational moral core.  They operate on emotion because they haven’t been taught to think of consequences, and they’ve been given so little societal caring that they haven’t learned empathy.  Then, when they do something like this, drive-by shootings of random people, or turn to drugs for the pleasure so completely missing in their lives, we assign all the guilt to those individuals without considering our and our society’s major contribution to such actions.

Occam

P.S. And, yes, it is the worst news ever, because we don’t seem to recognize the need to make all the members our society more rational, caring, and better educated.  By helping the upper class become more and more wealthy, driving the middle class into the lower class and continuously reducing our focus and budgets on high quality social services and education, we keep sinking further and further into this abyss.

O

[ Edited: 30 August 2008 12:52 PM by Occam ]
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Posted: 30 August 2008 12:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Occam - 30 August 2008 12:44 PM

Our society does a great job of depriving the poor and most minorities of any sort of decent education and training in ethics and reasoning.  The kids grow up witthout a rational moral core.  They operate on emotion because they haven’t been taught to think of consequences, and they’ve been given so little societal caring that they haven’t learned empathy.  Then, when they do something like this, drive-by shootings of random people, or turn to drugs for the pleasure so completely missing in their lives, we assign all the guilt to those individuals without considering our and our society’s major contribution to such actions.

Occam

Yes and I believe the reason we do this is our belief in free will, which is why I fight against it and am so disappointed that “free thinkers” don’t see the damage it does.

Well I couldn’t help making that point but it certainly wasn’t what I was aiming at when originally posting, I was shocked at reality and was questioning whether existence is a good thing, if such a price is to be paid.

Stehen

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Posted: 01 September 2008 12:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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I never could understand mothers who abandon or kill their child.  To me, as a mother who carried and gave birth to two sons, our offspring is part of us. What affects them affects me on some level, even psychologically.  Such things make no sense to me and rather angers me.  IMHO, such mothers are mentally ill and need psychological help.  Then again, there maybe something wrong with their brain chemistry that can’t be fixed with the knowledge and medications we currently have.

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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 01 September 2008 12:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I just don’t understand….and to torture and infant in such a hideous way. sick

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Posted: 01 September 2008 01:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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That is a terrible way to kill a baby.

There are some other quite disturbing things about this case, however.

China Arnold has been found guilty of aggravated murder and will be sentenced to death.  Yet according to this article the baby was one month old when she was killed.  It seems to me quite likely that China Arnold was in a very poor mental state when she decided to kill the baby.  Moreover according to this article she demonstrated immediate remorse, repeatedly screaming “I killed my baby!” when the baby was taken to hospital.

I don’t know about Ohio law, but in the United Kingdom even during the dark days of the death penalty this case would not have resulted in a capital sentence.  The Infanticide Act provides a defence for exactly this kind of case.  Moreover the 1957 Homicide Act provides a defence of diminished responsibility which would almost certainly apply in this case.

I find it improbable that Ohio law considers a mother who kills her child just one month after giving birth to be in full possession of her mental faculties.

Something has gone terribly wrong with this case, or else the reports aren’t telling the whole story.

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Posted: 01 September 2008 02:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Yes, undiagnosed postpartum psychosis a la Andrea Yates (that could be another whole thread) comes to mind.

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Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

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Posted: 01 September 2008 05:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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what are the stats regarding prosecutions for infantacide in ohio, wrt race.  I know there is a greater chance of the state seeking the death penalty for ‘adult’ murder if the killer is black, but I’m curious if that extends to this situation.

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hmmmmm  π

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Posted: 01 September 2008 07:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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I think the state will go for death penalty because of the way the case worked out.  In a sane country she would not even have been prosecuted, but I suspect feelings are very high at the moment in Dayton.

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Posted: 02 September 2008 04:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Tony Sidaway - 01 September 2008 07:03 AM

I think the state will go for death penalty because of the way the case worked out.  In a sane country she would not even have been prosecuted, but I suspect feelings are very high at the moment in Dayton.

Tony I couldn’t agree more,in a sane country she would NOT be prosecuted.I have a feeling she won’t get the death penalty though.I hope not,she has suffered enough!!

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Posted: 02 September 2008 05:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Hmmmm. I always have a hard time in situations like this separating out rational and emotional reactions.

Emotional-
1. What a horrible thing to do, what a monster, she should be punished, etc
2. what a horrible thing to do, something terrible must be wrong with her, she needs help and why couldn’t somebody have prevented this by seeing it, etc

Rational-
1. The media loves to parade rare but horrific events like this, but do we really want to base criminal justice policy on outliers?
2. Evil seems to be inevitable, so we shouldn’t expect to have a system perfect enough to prevent it 100% of the time
3. Perhaps a better mental health, social support system would reduce the indicdence of such events?
4. Perhaps a stronger deterrant system reliably carried out would reduce the incidence of such events?


FWIW, I’m opposed to the death penalty, but not on the usual grounds. Though pretty far to the left generally, I don’t think it morally unjustifiable for the state to take life if it can be demonstrated empirically that it is an effective deterrant and reduces suffering on balance. I happen to think this isn’t true since I think most of what it is used for are actions that don’t involve rational consideration of the consequences and for which deterrance is unlikely to be useful. And, of course, there are lots of good arguments against it on pragmatic grounds (it’s generally applied unfairly to people of color, it is irrevocable even if we;ve got the wrong person, etc).

I know what Stephan takes away from this as a “lesson,” to the extent it is anything other than a meaningnless tragedy, and I know we aren’t going to agree on that “lesson.” But I wonder if there really is anything to be learned here, or if it is just enough to empathize with the suffering of the human beings involved and leave it at that? That, at least, is my tendancy, especially since I think too much policy-making is done on the basis of emotional reactions to unrepresentative events, but what do others here think?

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Posted: 08 September 2008 05:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Here’s a crazy thought—irregardless of how she became the monster that she is, she committed a horrible atrocity and should have to answer for her crimes.  Blame racism, blame the rich (that seems popular these days), blame everyone you can think of…  but here’s a crazy idea—blame HER—she’s the one who did it!  Think this to death if you must, but the fact remains, she is a monster and should no longer be allowed to live and propagate her inferior genetics to future generations.  And no, I’m not religious—I just think people should be responsible for their actions.  FLAME ON!!!

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Posted: 08 September 2008 06:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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SkiCarver - 01 September 2008 05:07 AM

what are the stats regarding prosecutions for infantacide in ohio, wrt race.  I know there is a greater chance of the state seeking the death penalty for ‘adult’ murder if the killer is black, but I’m curious if that extends to this situation.

Just curious—what are the stats concerning the percentage of blacks that commit violent crimes vs. whites that commit violent crimes?

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Posted: 08 September 2008 06:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Doppelganger - 08 September 2008 06:01 AM

Just curious—what are the stats concerning the percentage of blacks that commit violent crimes vs. whites that commit violent crimes?

Here are some statistics on murder:

Black male: 
Murderers: 47.9% 
Victims: 42.2%

White male: 
Murderers: 42.9% 
Victims: 37.3%

White female:
Murderers: 5.4% 
Victims: 13.3%

Black female: 
Murderers: 4.1% 
Victims: 7.2%


And race relationship (killers/victims):

White kills white: 46.1%
Black kills black: 40.7%
Black kills white: 8.5%
White kills black: 3.5%
Other kills other: 0.6%
Other kills white: 0.4%
White kills other:  0.2%
Black kills other: 0.1%
Other kills black: 0.0%


Here is the source.

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Posted: 08 September 2008 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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So, taken from the aforementioned website, I qoute…

(According to the US Census Bureau the US population in 2004 was 80.4% white and 12.8% black.)

Do the statistics mean that of all the murders committed, 47.9% of them were committed by blacks, even though blacks accounted for only 12.8% of the population in 2004?

In other words, almost HALF of all the murders were committed by black males that only made up 1/10 th of the population back then?  If this is the case, and I am not interpreting this wrong, I think the statistics need to be presented in a different light.  This would seem to show that blacks are MUCH more likely to commit murder than whites.  As shown, the statistics can be misinterpreted quite easily to give the impression that whites and blacks commit murders at an equal rate.  Am I wrong here?

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