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Spreading the truth about Islam
Posted: 27 January 2013 09:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 136 ]
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Amnesty International, an organization I trust MORE than your authors is NOT impressed with Saudi Arabia:

Women continued to face severe discrimination both in law and in practice. They must obtain the permission of a male guardian before they can travel, take paid work, engage in higher education or marry, and their evidence carries less weight in a court of law than that of men. Domestic violence against women was believed to remain rife.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/saudi-arabia/report-2012

Also, why would I have any respect for a country where atheism is severely punished, other religions are barely tolerated, and to convert FROM Islam can get you the death penalty?

A book gets you nowhere here. A body of evidence has much more credibility.

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Posted: 27 January 2013 09:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 137 ]
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asanta - 27 January 2013 01:20 PM

You are not a woman. Sharia is peachy keen for you as a MAN. Sharia Law is all about control of women.

I read the link about equality and below is quote:

Factors in Interpretation

The process of extracting laws from the primary sources is a human function. The surmise of legal practitioners may therefore vary considerably and be influenced by their specific times, circumstances and cultures. Obviously, opinions and verdicts of human beings do not enjoy the authority or the finality accorded to the primary sources, which God revealed.

But actually they do in practise!  Therein lies the problem.

It is natural to speak of the best messages in scriptures, conveniently ignoring how corrupt and/or misinterpreted the worst messages in scripture have become.  The horrible reality is that most heinous crimes are committed by men in the “name” of Holy Authority.

Until all Scripture is cleansed of inflammatory language, it is dangerous and continues to foster prejudice and mistrust.

[ Edited: 27 January 2013 10:03 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 27 January 2013 10:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 138 ]
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Write4U - 27 January 2013 09:57 PM

I read the link about equality and below is quote:

Factors in Interpretation

The process of extracting laws from the primary sources is a huMAN function. The surmise of legal practitioners may therefore vary considerably and be influenced by their specific times, circumstances and cultures. Obviously, opinions and verdicts of human beings do not enjoy the authority or the finality accorded to the primary sources, which God revealed.

There, I fixed it for you!

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Posted: 28 January 2013 03:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 139 ]
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asanta - 27 January 2013 10:12 PM
Write4U - 27 January 2013 09:57 PM

I read the link about equality and below is quote:

Factors in Interpretation

The process of extracting laws from the primary sources is a huMAN function. The surmise of legal practitioners may therefore vary considerably and be influenced by their specific times, circumstances and cultures. Obviously, opinions and verdicts of human beings do not enjoy the authority or the finality accorded to the primary sources, which God revealed.

There, I fixed it for you!

Although I am in complete agreement with you, I don’t want to take credit for the quote. It came from the link posted by I.J. Abdul Hakeem (#129)
(red highlights mine), which clearly states that the application of Sharia law is highly unequal depending on local tradition and cannot be used to support an equality argument in practice of Sharia law.

http://www.onislam.net/english/reading-islam/research-studies/islamic-thought/451580-gender-equity-in-islam.html

p.s. sorry Asanta….......reading.gif

[ Edited: 29 January 2013 12:51 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 28 January 2013 11:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 140 ]
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But this worries me as much as Islam.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/01/25/arizona-republicans-propose-bill-that-would-not-allow-atheists-to-graduate-high-school/

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Posted: 29 January 2013 09:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 141 ]
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But this worries me as much as Islam.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/01/25/arizona-republicans-propose-bill-that-would-not-allow-atheists-to-graduate-high-school/

Interesting as this is the same oath REQUIRED by the US military for new recruits. Are the Arizona reps. drafting their students into the army to patrol the borders and hunt for illegal immigrants who are decapitating our citizens? I suspect Jan (finger waving) Brewer and her minions of this egregious attack on those student’s civil rights. Back to the 50’s we go with the loyalty oath BS. They should be focusing on improving educational facilities and curriculum, not wasting time attempting to program kids to become xtian super patriots.


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Posted: 29 January 2013 02:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 142 ]
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Funny though how being a non-believer could not get you out of the draft, back in the 60s.

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All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

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Posted: 29 January 2013 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 143 ]
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Funny though how being a non-believer could not get you out of the draft, back in the 60s.


Nope, but being a believer could (Amish, Amonite, Hutterite, Quaker etc.) or extreme hardship due to dependents, sole surviving son, medical student, divinity student, college student, until the lottery began, Farmers, officials deferred by law, or conscientious objectors to name a few. Of course if your old man was wealthy and powerful you could be allowed to join the Guard and show up for training every 90 days.

 

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Posted: 30 January 2013 11:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 144 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 27 January 2013 08:11 PM

The book was co-edited by a non-Muslim.  I would suggest you read some of it at google books before you start commenting sir.

so what?

I don’t debate the merits or lack thereof of self serving fantasy. In the end, self-serving fantasy is all that religion is. A set of precepts which is based on the assumption that a god or gods exists even though there is zero evidence to support any of that.


I think you are misunderstanding

If you read my initial comments I was NOT commenting on the proof of God.

Someone pointed out how women are harassed in Egypt and indirectly (and maybe unintentionally) made a connect of that with Islam.
THAT is what I am responding to. This is why i am asking you to read the book. 

If you want to discuss existence of God, then i agree nothing presented thus far proves very much in that regards.  That requires a seperate discussion all together.


You do not have to believe in Islam if you do not wish.


[002:256]  Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.
—-Quran


However, if you want to believe that Islam or Shariah is a harmful thing, then I want to know how you respond to my sources.  It is fully possible to not believe in an ideology yet think it to be harmful.

EX:
A monk may not believe in athiesm yet think it is ‘‘bad for humanity’‘.

Does that make atheism evil?

Of course not (excluding some crazy loons who magically pop up every now and then.)

To insist otherwise requires evidence.
Which is what I am asking you brother with regards to my faith.


Thanks for shedding some light on your position.
Hope to continue having these interesting discussions with you.

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Posted: 31 January 2013 12:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 145 ]
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Write4U - 27 January 2013 09:57 PM
asanta - 27 January 2013 01:20 PM

You are not a woman. Sharia is peachy keen for you as a MAN. Sharia Law is all about control of women.

I read the link about equality and below is quote:

Factors in Interpretation

The process of extracting laws from the primary sources is a human function. The surmise of legal practitioners may therefore vary considerably and be influenced by their specific times, circumstances and cultures. Obviously, opinions and verdicts of human beings do not enjoy the authority or the finality accorded to the primary sources, which God revealed.

But actually they do in practise!  Therein lies the problem.

It is natural to speak of the best messages in scriptures, conveniently ignoring how corrupt and/or misinterpreted the worst messages in scripture have become.  The horrible reality is that most heinous crimes are committed by men in the “name” of Holy Authority.

Until all Scripture is cleansed of inflammatory language, it is dangerous and continues to foster prejudice and mistrust.


Thanks for taking time to reading the articles!


The ultimate question then comes down to what does a religion really teach if humans tend to differ on how to interpret it.

The fair thing to do would be to see what is the dominant view that any religon (or ideology)  teaches. 

But regardless of whatever happens you will always find those who do bad things with religion.

As one scholar puts it.



Men fight not only over [b]ideas, territory, power, and welfare values
. They also sympathsize with those whom they consider their [b]ethnics, religious, and ideological kin.


Peace and War: Armed Conflicts and International Order, 1648-1989
Cambridge University Press
By Kalevi J. Holsti
page 319

One political science scholar discusses this in more detail here:

http://www.psmag.com/culture/myth-of-the-modern-religious-war-34617/

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Say: He is God, the Unique.
God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
And there is none equal to Him.

Quran (112: 1-4)

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Posted: 31 January 2013 01:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 146 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem,

But regardless of whatever happens you will always find those who do bad things with religion.

As one scholar puts it.
Men fight not only over ideas, territory, power, and welfare values. They also sympathsize with those whom they consider their ethnics, religious, and ideological kin.

I really appreciate your honesty and I am confident that you will also agree that Scripture should not convey conflicting moral messages, open to interpretation. That would make the application of all Abrahamic religions purely subjective and that is not morally justifiable.

  (2:24) “And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.”

This little example scares me and does nothing to make me respect or trust the veracity of this scripture as a path to enlightenment. Sounds a little too primitive for me, don’t you agree?

IMO, an unsurmountable obstacle in the reconcilliation of religions and/or science is the simple fact that each scripture claims truth and therefore is inherently prejudicial to other viewpoints. In spite of the assurances of fairness and equality, they are exclusive religions, which allow no exceptions in order to “be in compliance” with God’s revealed truth.

Unfortunately, your signature seems to confirm my observations and does not much to put my mind at ease.

Say: He is God, the Unique.
God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
And there is none equal to Him.
Quran (112: 1-4)

[ Edited: 31 January 2013 01:59 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 31 January 2013 07:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 147 ]
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I think you are misunderstanding

I’m not misunderstanding anything. You are. You’ve been here constantly trying to justify your religion, but in order for a theistic religion and it’s precepts to be justified to any degree, it’s first has to be able to:

a) Prove that the deity it believes in exists and

b) Prove that it represents accurately what that deity wants and expects.

The Abrahamic religions of Christianity, Islam, and Judiasm fail the second test because it can’t prove the first.

Ergo, we are talking about nothing.

(Note: The Bible and the Qu’ran don’t prove anything. They are the claim. The assertion. They cannot prove themselves.

Do you get it now?

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Posted: 01 February 2013 12:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 148 ]
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asanta - 27 January 2013 09:24 PM

Amnesty International, an organization I trust MORE than your authors is NOT impressed with Saudi Arabia:

Women continued to face severe discrimination both in law and in practice. They must obtain the permission of a male guardian before they can travel, take paid work, engage in higher education or marry, and their evidence carries less weight in a court of law than that of men. Domestic violence against women was believed to remain rife.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/saudi-arabia/report-2012


A book gets you nowhere here. A body of evidence has much more credibility.

Interesting Comments

Let me just stress again that I am NOT defending everything in Saudi Arabia (I had my fair share of complaints when I was living there!!)

However, Saudi’s criminal justice is largely based on Islamic law (according Phillip Giraldi)
http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2012/04/03/the-islamophobia-excuse/http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2012/04/03/the-islamophobia-excuse/

So I quoted what criminologists believe about this. 


With regards to women.

I personally think it is wrong to treat women in such a manner.

Amnesty international isn’t the only one to advocate that Muslim women should be allowed to live without a male ‘‘guardian.’‘

Prominent Egyptian Muslim Scholar from Sheikh `Abdel Khaliq Hasan Ash-Shareef

It is permissible for a woman to live alone if she doesn’t have a mahram, such as a husband, a brother, a sister, or children as long as she is honest and trustworthy
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/fiqh/449495-women-living-alone-without-a-mahram-and-traveling.html


Additionally, Indonesian scholar Syafiq Hasyim discusses how ancient Muslim scholars understood the concept of guardianship. None of the opinions he mentions are anything like women
being unable to take care of them selves.

Understanding Women in Islam: An Indonesian Perspective
pages 103-105

(can be seen on books.google.com)
 

If you want to know about, ‘‘obedience to husbands’’ part of Islam.
This article might help you understand better

http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/society-and-family/social-life/168963-obedience-within-loving-marriages.html

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Say: He is God, the Unique.
God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
And there is none equal to Him.

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Posted: 01 February 2013 01:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 149 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 01 February 2013 12:12 AM

However, Saudi’s criminal justice is largely based on Islamic law…..

No, it is based on their interpretation of Islamic Law. That is much different.

So I quoted what criminologists believe about this.

No, you quoted what a couple of criminologist believe. What these two believe have nothing to do with the overall quality of life in Saudi Arabia, especially for women. Domestic Abuse is very high, and a man can pretty much dump a wife whenever he wishes….according to Islamic Law. As I stated before, North Korea also has a very low crime level. So did Cambodia under Pol Pot.

It is permissible for a woman to live alone if she doesn’t have a mahram, such as a husband, a brother, a sister, or children as long as she is honest and trustworthy

Well, isn’t that hunky dory??...just a little paternalistic, do ya think?

[ Edited: 01 February 2013 09:47 PM by asanta ]
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Posted: 01 February 2013 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 150 ]
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It is permissible for a woman to live alone if she doesn’t have a mahram, such as a husband, a brother, a sister, or children as long as she is honest and trustworthy

Permissible??? How arrogant!

Of course, this doesn’t apply to anybody born with a penis, does it?

Of course it doesn’t!

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