It has been my experience that anyone claiming to “have the truth” about a complex topic has nothing but their own dogma as an opposing viewpoint.
If there are specific claims to be made, then one should make them with whatever evidence they have to support those claims.

Chris you are correct.  I am in no way putting my beliefs on a scale with Islam, or any other belief system for that matter.  We can save that for another day.  I am merely opposing the tolerance of a 1500 year old death threat, that many individuals have made good on, and are going to continue to make good on if the problem is not capped.  The fact is, if you are Islamic, you’ve had to have at some point read the Qu’ran.  You at some point will come or have come across “Kill them!”  Now what you decide to do is ultimately your choice, whether you choose to say “No I won’t do that…” or “Sounds wrong, but okay, if you say so..” or “Yes, I’ve been wanting to do that anyway!”, is entirely up to you, but as long as you are presented with that instruction, and it is interpreted as coming from a higher power, than there is a problem.  Why?  Because you will consider it.  My next door neighbor must have read that and said “No I won’t do that…”, but Osama Bin Laden read it and said “Yes, I’ve been waiting to do that!”.  In the future there will be more individuals presented with that choice, that will choose ill.  The number of radicals amongst peaceful Muslims could be 1 in 1,000, but like you said Chris there are 1 billion.  Do the math.

I have actually learned a lot just from this conversation.  I will do this when going about this: 1.) Make sure I get the most accurate texts, first of all.  2.) Make sure I draw from the few most-trusted sources.  Not only the Qu’ran, but other teachings and accounts.  3.) Stick to the facts. 

In response to Ain Al-Aql, thank you for sharing the story, I understand your sentiment.  It is very much so like that, people defend what they identify with.  Parents with children, Voters with their candidates.  I admit I had a bias during the presidential campaign, no matter what they said about Barack Obama, I was immovable.  Partly because I am from Chicago and all of the people they criticized him for being associated with are within minutes of me.  However, if I had been for McCain, I would have been the same way.  I must, however, disagree with your opinion (though I don’t know if that is possible because it is your opinion).  I will achieve the goal.  No doubt.  I may not be able to get everyone to throw their Qu’ran’s out of the window, but positive changes will be made, believe me.  I will do that using reason and proper strategy.  No need to present this to Anti-muslims, 1.) They are already against it for their own reasons 2.) Amongst all Anti groups are radicals, and they might be inspired to violence, which is what we are looking to curb here.

A thought for your consideration: almost all the people who actually kill are young males, 15 - 30 years old. This group is the most dangerous group in every society; in our own society this group is responsible for the great majority of all forms of violent crime: murder, rape, robbery, and so forth. I’d thus point out that American young males are doing far more damage to us than Islamic young males. My point is not that we should therefore give the Islamic killers a pass, but that being young and male might well be a larger factor in their violence than their religious beliefs. A young American male grows up in a lousy neighborhood seeing lots of violence, pain, and suffering, and grows up to be a killer without conscience. A young Islamic male grows up in a strict religious environment and grows up to be a killer without conscience. In each case, the environment of their upbringing led to their subsequent behavior.

This then leads me to suggest a constructive approach. Perhaps your message could be “Muslims, young men the world over turn violent. In our society it’s poverty, drugs, and gangs that focus that violent impulse; in yours, it’s the fanatic interpretation of the Quran. We’re not doing a very good job at our end, but at least we understand the problem and are trying to do something about it. What can you do at your end?”

I personally feel there are enough anti-muslim sites on the internet, brimming with pages and pages of the so-called “truth.” I feel these sites cause division and upset.

If people want to make a change, I feel they should be spreading a positive message of rational thought. Reasoning. Looking towards the future - not quoting texts and historical examples that the majority of the followers are already well aware of. Doesn’t matter what religion you’re speaking of, faith cannot easily be broken simply by pointing out flaws.

For example, you could quote horrible stories of the christian bible until you’re blue in the face - murders, stonings, incest, slavery, throwing daughters to a crowd to be raped - and that is not going to change the mind of an evangelical. They’ve already read the bible, and have been to all the bible studies at their church. Heck, you could bring them PROOF that Jesus was a homosexual abortion doctor in the holy land. They wouldn’t budge. They’d say “God is testing our faith.”

The change from religion to reason has to come from within. For most, I believe, it’s slowly having their eyes opened to the world of science and reason. And not by having someone shove it down their throat - by simply having an environment that lends to self-discovery, and a supportive network of friends. At least, this is how it happened for me.

Just my opinion.

Jules - 23 November 2008 09:33 PM

Just my opinion.

... and a very excellent opinion it is.

This is a snark, and it is most definitely NOT directed at TruthHathCome, who has demonstrated civility and reasonableness.

Whereas: The Islamic terrorist movement represents a serious threat to the United States of America; and
Whereas: The Judeo-Christian heritage is fundamental to American culture; and
Whereas: Islamic terrorists are seeking to undermine and subvert American culture at every turn; and
Whereas: The preservation of Judeo-Christian values is central to the defense of American culture;

Be It Therefore Resolved:
That the use of Arabic numerals be declared offensive to the sensibilities of all true American patriots; and further
That the Government of the United States of America use the Roman numbering system in all future publications.

Be it so resolved on this XXIVth day of November, MMVIII, by vote of CCCLVI members of the House of Representatives.

Chris Crawford - 24 November 2008 01:16 PM

This is a snark, and it is most definitely NOT directed at TruthHathCome, who has demonstrated civility and reasonableness.

Whereas: The Islamic terrorist movement represents a serious threat to the United States of America; and
Whereas: The Judeo-Christian heritage is fundamental to American culture; and
Whereas: Islamic terrorists are seeking to undermine and subvert American culture at every turn; and
Whereas: The preservation of Judeo-Christian values is central to the defense of American culture;

Be It Therefore Resolved:
That the use of Arabic numerals be declared offensive to the sensibilities of all true American patriots; and further
That the Government of the United States of America use the Roman numbering system in all future publications.

Be it so resolved on this XXIVth day of November, MMVIII, by vote of CCCLVI members of the House of Representatives.

I’ll second it if one of our bright engineers can come up with an advanced math system that can actually use Roman numerals, otherwise, it will just die in committee!

But consider how much easier it would be for the House to pass a bill spending a mere $MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM (the underlines should be overlines) (that’s only a billion dollars in Roman numerals). People would look at all those Ms and their eyes would glaze over. To alter the Senator’s comment, “a few thousand M’s here, a few thousand M’s there, pretty soon you’re looking at real money”.

It does have it’s advantages, especially when you convert all of the calculators they will be using into Roman numerals! We could sell our old ones for a biliion M’s!

And there’s already a Roman numeral calculator on the web:

Roman Numeral Calculator

Chris Crawford - 24 November 2008 02:23 PM

And there’s already a Roman numeral calculator on the web:

Roman Numeral Calculator

Yes. but it defeats the purpose to convert it back into Arabic numerals! And you still have to invent a usable zero, which was also a big problem with Roman Numerals!

A background of the founder of Islam, including what his followers and others say about him, as well as any quotes I can find.*
The truth about ‘peaceful Muslims’ and the misunderstanding the average individual has about *
The true purpose of Islam and the methods of terror used to spread their influence and terror*

           
                “Islam, above all, is the most powerful total abstinence association in the world…
                It replaced monkishness by manliness.  It gives hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind, and recognition of the fundamental facts of human nature”
                      Canon Isac Taylor, 19th century Anglican Priest
                        Diplomatic fly-sheets, Volume 5,
                      page 179

                “Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him”
                    Diwan Chand Sharma, Head of the department of English of Anglo Vedic College. Quoted by K.S.Ramakrishna Rao
                    Muhhamed the Prophet of Islam
                      page 35

As one who spent many years studying Arabic (and therefore getting a lot of exposure to the Quran) I can tell you that you don’t have to look any further than the Quran itself for all the incriminating evidence of what is truly a mind-trap of fear and irrational belief which promotes an ethno-centric view of intolerance and “God-justified” violence.

See this video from the youtube channel of the renowned Zaytuna institute, where their scholar says

              “I spent a lot of time in the arabic world.. most arabs do not know quranic arabic.”
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDEKJDgXO-U
                Time slice 17:30-17:45

“The vast preponderance of today’s Muslims do not know their prophet or their religion very well”

I am not sure, but I think the quote is from Craig Winn. He is not an authority on Islam.  The Detroit Arab American Study Team has included him among those:

          “certain media personalities, many from the right wings…became notorious for their hostility towards Arabs and Muslims”

                                —-Citizenship and Crisis: Arab Detroit After 9/11
                                  By Detroit Arab American Study Team
                                    page 196
See also
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_deception_of_craig_winn_revealed

I am not making claims of what the true form of islam is based on groups of people who practice it.  I am telling you, the true form of islam is what the qu’ran told me, and that everything else is a distortion. 

I respect your inquiry, but I do not appreciate your belief that you know more than 1400 years of Muslim scholarship. While the vast majority of the Muslim layity do not study their religion,
their scholars are not ignorant.

See this video from the youtube channel of the renowned Zaytuna institute, where their scholar says

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDEKJDgXO-U

                “First of all before you can even understand the quran, you need to dedicate 20 years of your life to study. there are 12 knowledges you have to master
                  before you can comment on the quran.”
                    Time Slice 16:10-16:32

 

I will put verses into the context of Muhammad’s life, and quote from the Sunnah, recorded by bukhari, Muslim, Ishaq, and Tabari, which are very trusted sources.

You have just shown that you do not properly understand Islamic scholarship when you quote Ibn Ishaq and Tabari.

 

According to Islamic scholar Jalal-Abu-Al-Rub, there was some dispute about the reliability of Ibn Ishaq. He also says that:

Adh-Dhahabi also listed some of the major scholars of Islam who refuted Ibn   Is`haq’s reliability in Hadith narrations. Imam Malik, for instance, called Ibn Is`haq a liar and Yahya Ibn Sa`eed al-Ansari, as well as, al-A`mash refuted one of Ibn Is`haq’s narrations by saying that he lied.

Imam Ibn Numair said that Ibn Ishaq reported false Hadith s from unknown narrators
5 How Ibn Ishaq’s narration should be treated is summarized in this statement from Imam Ibn Numair,... if Ibn Ishaq is the only narrator of that Hadith, then his narration is discounted.

Prophet of Mercy, Chapter 2

As for Imam At-Tabari, he himself writes:

Let him who examines this book of mine know that I have relied, as regards everything I mention therein which I stipulate to be described by me, solely upon what has been transmitted to me by way of reports which I cite therein and traditions which I ascribe to their narrators, to the exclusion of what may be apprehended by rational argument or deduced by the human mind, except in very few cases. This is because knowledge of the reports of men of the past and of contemporaneous views of men of the present do not reach the one who has not witnessed them nor lived in their times except through the accounts of reporters and the transmission of transmitters, to the exclusion of rational deduction and mental inference. Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us

both quotes can be seen at
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/christian_missionaries_on_the_historical_method_and_hadith_science

” I arranged to meet with the terrorists themselves. I asked members of al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade, and Hamas why they were killing us. They said, “Islam. We are following Muhammad’s orders.”

        “Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam,
            which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts.
      Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia

        “Killing of people, in any place and with any kind of weapons, including atomic bombs, long-range missiles, biological or chemical weopons, passenger or war planes, carried out by any
          organization, country or individuals is condemned. … It makes no difference whether such massacres happen in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Qana, Sabra, Shatila, Deir Yassin, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq
            or in New York and Washington.”
        Ayatollah Ali Khamene’i

http://kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/

All religions including Islam are fairytales.  They have a wide variety of authors from the originals, the bible, the koran, etc. to present day clerics, all of which or whom make so many statements that one can find anything, positive or negative, one wants to.  It’s all opinions of the authors whether or not we agree with them.  As such, it’s a waste of time bothering with Islam or any religion.  Much better to read the recent writings of humanists and decide for one’s self what one’s behavior should be.  And while one is at it, much better to discard all of the make-believe characters like god, allah, zeus, etc. that just get in the way of rational thought.

Occam

Occam. - 19 September 2012 03:21 PM

All religions including Islam are fairytales.  They have a wide variety of authors from the originals, the bible, the koran, etc. to present day clerics, all of which or whom make so many statements that one can find anything, positive or negative, one wants to.  It’s all opinions of the authors whether or not we agree with them.  As such, it’s a waste of time bothering with Islam or any religion.
Occam

I can understand you confusion. I used to see differing opinions in some faiths and got confused too! The thing we should all realize, however, is that there is always a ‘mainstream’ view. While some clerics may dispute a few things, there are other things which are absolutely undisputable. The only thing to see is if those agreed upon things are acceptable for humanity in the end.
You might find this article interesting:
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/principles-of-islamic-jurisprudence-usul-ul-fiqh/concepts-and-term/175792-ikhtilaaf-juristic-difference-how-and-why.html?Term=

With regards to Islam, I would be interested to know what ‘disputes’ there are which should concern Muslims.

 
Much better to read the recent writings of humanists and decide for one’s self what one’s behavior should be.  And while one is at it, much better to discard all of the make-believe characters like god, allah, zeus, etc. that just get in the way of rational thought.

Reason in undoubtedly a neccessary component, but is it all that is required. For instance, look at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy days about morallity:

All of those who use “morality” normatively also hold that, under plausible specified conditions, all rational persons would endorse that code. Moral theories differ in their accounts of the essential characteristics of rational persons and in their specifications of the conditions under which all rational persons would endorse a code of conduct as a moral code…

They claimed that “morality” refers to that code of conduct that is put forward by a society. However, even in small homogeneous societies that have no written language, distinctions are sometimes made among morality, etiquette, law, and religion. So, even for these anthropologists “morality” does not often refer to every code of conduct put forward by a society….

Because minimizing harm can conflict with accepting authority and emphasizing loyalty, there can be fundamental disagreements within a society about what is the morally right way to behave. A society whose morality contains all three of these features may be criticized by philosophers

Thus, even among humanists there will be great dispute as to what behavior we should have. Indeed, the same principles which you applied to religion can also be applied to morality.
Just as how you can find varying (though sometimes negligible) opinons in religion, you can also observe it in discussions about how we should live life., even if it is something some people dislike

I don’t have any confusion.  My personal rule is simple:  “Help others whenever I can, avoid hurting anyone if possible,
and enjoy life.”

In addition, I don’t waste my time with silly fairytales about metaphysics, gods, spirit, etc.  I focus all my interest and
beliefs on the physical world, and it’s worked for me for 82 years.

Occam