Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 01 February 2013 08:51 AM

It is permissible for a woman to live alone if she doesn’t have a mahram, such as a husband, a brother, a sister, or children as long as she is honest and trustworthy

Permissible??? How arrogant!

Of course, this doesn’t apply to anybody born with a penis, does it?

Of course it doesn’t!

Men who are UNtrustworthy can live how they damned please as long as it doesn’t cross the current interpretation of Sharia Law, and I an absolutely sure they have MUCH more latitude than any woman would.

How wonderful Sharia Law is!

.....Fayhan al-Ghamdi, an Islamic preacher and regular guest on Muslim television networks,... 

emphasis mine.

They said the father had doubted Lama’s virginity and had her checked up by a medic.

(The daughter was five.)

a social worker from the hospital where Lama was admitted, said the girl’s back was broken and that she had been raped “everywhere”, according to the group.

And because Sharia Law is Just…

The ruling is based on Islamic laws that a father cannot be executed for murdering his children, nor can husbands be executed for murdering their wives, activists said.

emphasis mine..

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/02/saudi-preacher-spared-after-raping-killing-daughter/

And because Sharia Law is Just…

The ruling is based on Islamic laws that a father cannot be executed for murdering his children, nor can husbands be executed for murdering their wives, activists said.

emphasis mine..

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/02/saudi-preacher-spared-after-raping-killing-daughter/

I am confused sir,  before you said that

to point to a low crime rate is to damn it with the very faintest of praise.

So do you believe that the criminal justice of Islam causes crime or prevents it? I would appreciate if you could clarify for me sir.

 

 

With regards to the story of the the poor 5-year old girl, it is aboslutely wrong to say this is part of the Sharia. Whoever made this claim has been misinforming the public and must
publicly apologize at once.

 

Killing women and children is prohibtted even on the battlefield according to the consensus.

    Salih bin Muhammad Lahidan, chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:
“Killing the weak, infants, women, and the elderly, and destroying property, are considered serious crimes in Islam. . . .Anyone who thinks that any Islamic scholar will condone such acts is totally wrong. . . . This barbaric act is not justified by any sane mind-set. . . . This act is pernicious and shameless and evil in the extreme.”

http://kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/

The Amman Message, proclaimed by 200 Islamic scholars from 50 countries at a conference in Amman, Jordan, and later endorsed by hundreds of other Islamic scholars and the Organization of the Islamic Conference:

“Islam recognizes the noble station of [human] life, so there is to be no fighting against non-combatants, and no assault upon civilians and their properties, children at their mothers’ bosom, students in their schools, nor upon elderly men and women. Assault upon the life of a human being, be it murder, injury or threat, is an assault upon the right to life among all human beings.

http://kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/

See also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxiR27qmWw4  (posted by Muhadith.org,  if anyone is wondering about the video’s authenticity)

 

What is the punishment for murder?

On the website of the Saudi scholar Shiekh Salman al Awdah,

Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî, former professor at al-Imâm University in Riyadh
states that

[If the relatives do not prescribe the other compensations], the court is obliged to carry out the death pealty on their behalf.

http://en.islamtoday.net/node/1070

 

compare that to:

The ruling is based on Islamic laws that a father cannot be executed for murdering his children, nor can husbands be executed for murdering their wives, activists said.

 

So if it is forbidden to do this (by consensus) against the women and children of the enemy, I think the Islamic position on the above issue is resolved.

If you ask me about the story,  I dont know what happened but considering that above statement in the news report is such a fundamental error, the words of agent Phillip Giraldi come to mind:

Depicting Islam as manifestly medieval, backward, and cruel is not new, as it has been going on in one form or another since the Israelis and Palestinians first locked horns. Recognizing that the propaganda that is being ground out in the mainstream media   derives from that conflict, it is easy to understand why Muslims are persistently portrayed in negative terms
http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2012/04/03/the-islamophobia-excuse/

 

This wouldn’t be the first time the news misinformed the public about the Muslim world. For examples, see

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/debunked-zionist-and-islamophobic-libel-rape-epidemic-muslims-norway
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/0430/Ahead-of-elections-Egypt-s-state-propaganda-machine-rolls-on

Domestic violence against women was believed to remain rife.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/saudi-arabia/report-2012

Notice there words was believed to remain rifle. This contradicts the information I showed that crime is low.

You replied that

No, you quoted what a couple of criminologist believe. What these two believe have nothing to do with the overall quality of life in Saudi Arabia, especially for women

The quote stated that
“Most scholars[ attribute the low Saudi Arabian crime rate mainly to the strong influence of Islam in various spheres of life in Saudi society, particularly to the implementation of

A book gets you nowhere here. A body of evidence has much more credibility.

The page that I referenced states that

After…the implementation of Shariah law throughout the country, crime rates decreased dramatically while apparent feelings of personal safety and social order improved (Mourad, 1980 pp504-14) Other studies broadly support these conclusions. (Basha, 1979; Basanawi, 1984)
Comparative conducted by Western criminologists are largely consistent with the conclusions….Adler (1983) lists Saudi Arabia among her 10 low crime rate nations.

These studies are in accord with the overall high sense of security and personal safety among Saudi citizens. (El-Sendiony, 1981)

These quotes alone reference 5 studies by name, much less than what the whole chapter has.

 

 

Crime is very low in North Korea, and it was also low under Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceaușescu, and in Libya under dictator Muammar Gaddafi. None of these are/were desirable places to live either.

I appreciate your point and so I spent some time looking up crime rates in some of the countries

 

while describing a number of dictators (though not all) , including Ceausescu, Harvard criminology scholar Willim Stuntz states that
“crime becomes more common and controlling it becomes more difficult” (note: this my summary, so I recommend everyone read the page for themselves at book.google.com)

The Collapse of American Criminal Justice
By William J. Stuntz page 29

For Libya, the Libya 2010 Crime & Safety Report by the US Department of State says

The Department of State considers Libya a high crime country

the quote and more details can be seen here
https://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportPDF.aspx?cid=9039

 

As for North Korea

Organized crime, corruption and gang activity are widespread in North Korea. ...North Korea is metamorphosing into a true “criminal state”

Crime and Punishment Around the World: Africa and the Middle East, Volume 1
edited by Graeme R. Newman
consultor to the Criminal Justice and Crime Prevention Division of the United Nations

page 182

I admire your ability to debate brother, but I could not find evidence for what you stated.

I gotta go for now, and I will later discuss some confusion regarding the quote I made about women and marhams.

I look forward to hearing your reply.

 

All books can be seen books.google.com

There is a difference between crime committed and crime reported. According to Wikipedia:

However criminology researcher Dr. Ali Wardak in the book Transnational and Comparative Criminology suggested ranking societies on the basis of official crime rates is problematic. He argued it is possible in Saudi Arabia that several criminal complaints are resolved outside formal judicial institutions and as a consequence remain undocumented by the police.

Another Saudi problem:

Saudi Arabia is a destination point for workers from South and Southeast Asia who are subjected to conditions which include involuntary servitude, non-payment of wages, confinement and withholding of passports as a restriction on their movement. Domestic workers are particularly vulnerable because some are confined to the house in which they work and are unable to seek help. Saudi Arabia is also a destination country for children trafficked from other Middle Eastern countries like Yemen, African countries like Nigeria, Mali, Somalia and Sudan and Asian nations like Pakistan and Afghanistan for the purpose of forced begging and involuntary servitude as street vendors. Some Nigerian women were reportedly trafficked into Saudi Arabia for commercial sexual exploitation.

and…

The nation has strict laws prohibiting drug trafficking; drug trafficking is a capital crime. Despite strict laws, however, illicit trafficking takes place in considerable amounts through underground channels especially marijuana, cocaine and homegrown psychedelic drugs

Domestic abuse of both wives and children is widespread in Saudi Arabia and not illegal since they are his property, and as long as he pays ‘blood money’ to the family of the victim, he can escape a long prison term.

According to a study conducted by Dr. Nura Al-Suwaiyan, director of the family safety program at the National Guard Hospital, one in four children are abused in Saudi Arabia. The National Society for Human Rights reports that almost 45% of the country’s children are facing some sort of abuse and domestic violence.It has also been claimed that trafficking of women is a particular problem in Saudi Arabia as the country’s large number of female foreign domestic workers, and loopholes in the system cause many to fall victim to abuse and torture.

And again, women’s (lack of) rights:

The U.S. State department considers that “discrimination against women is a significant problem” in Saudi Arabia and that women have few political or social rights. After her 2008 visit, the UN special reporter on violence against women noted the lack of women’s autonomy and the absence of a law criminalizing violence against women. The World Economic Forum 2010 Global Gender Gap Report ranked Saudi Arabia 129th out of 134 countries for gender parity. Every adult woman has to have a close male relative as her “guardian”. As a result, Human Rights Watch has described the position of Saudi women as like that of a minor, with little authority over their own lives.The guardian is entitled to make a number of critical decisions on a woman’s behalf

And…

Women are also said to have faced discrimination in the courts, where the testimony of one man equals that of two women, and in family and inheritance law. Polygamy is permitted for men, and men have a unilateral right to divorce their wives without needing any legal justification. A woman can only obtain a divorce with the consent of her husband or judicially if her husband has harmed her. In practice, it is very difficult for a Saudi woman to obtain a judicial divorce

And, men marry girls as young as ten in Saudi Arabia. No thank you. No matter how low the incidence of reported crime in Saudi Arabia may be, life there, to me, would be a good description of the christian version of hell.

I also visited the article and noticed this source that wikipedia gives about the book

Transnational and Comparative Criminology. Routledge Cavendish. pp. p93

This one page before the ones I referenced.  Out of curiousity, why are you using wikipedia instead of reading the book itself

(which is available at
http://books.google.com/books?id=ft0r5H1tviUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=transnational+and+comparative+criminology&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xyMpUZmFEub22AW2i4G4Bw&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA)

This is significant because on that same page, it states:

most crimonologists who have studied crime and criminal justice in Saudi Arabia are aware of these issues....Souryal showed Saudi Arabia’s murder rate to be 1 per 100,000 population compared to the combined world rate of 3.9 per 100,000.

If you mind me asking, why are you using wikipedia as a source?

Wikipedia itself states:
Wikis, including Wikipedia and other wikis sponsored by the Wikimedia Foundation, are not regarded as reliable sources

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples#Are_wikis_reliable_sources.3F

Thus, this makes a lot the things you have posted questionable. 

I have also already stated regarding women’s rights

I am NOT saying that Saudi Arabic is the ‘‘shining model of Islamic country’‘.  Saudi Arabia DOES have many problems.  The reason why I am using Saudi Arabia is because that
is the study of the book I quoted.  Saudi Arabi itself does often break Islamic law. See the quote i gave above from Giraldi. The full article can be seen here
http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2012/04/03/the-islamophobia-excuse/

Let me just stress again that I am NOT defending everything in Saudi Arabia (I had my fair share of complaints when I was living there!!)
However, Saudi’s criminal justice is largely based on Islamic law (according Phillip Giraldi)
http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2012/04/03/the-islamophobia-excuse/http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2012/04/03/the-islamophobia-excuse/

Scholar Sakeena Abdulraheem agrees with me (she is a woman):

“Muslim” countries but do not necessarily abide by the rights of women according to the teachings of Islam. This can be found in many countries throughout the world Muslim majority and non-Muslim majority one can find injustices throughout the world. What is important to keep in mind… is that all of the characteristics of the people you have encountered and the behaviors you have mentioned are not condoned or match the values and worldview, or capture the essence of Islam.
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-counselor/adapting-to-life-in-a-new-country/456446-depression-in-a-new-country.html

With regards to the quote about women living by themselves, I think there is misunderstanding.
The scholar was responding to a question as to whether it is islamically allowed for a woman to live
alone to which he replied

It is permissible for a woman to live alone if she doesn’t have a mahram, such as a husband, a brother, a sister, or children as long as she is honest and trustworthy
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/fiqh/449495-women-living-alone-without-a-mahram-and-traveling.html

THIS is the reason why men are not mentioned.
Granted I dont know what this scholars opinion on untrustworthy men is, but one cannot argue from silence.

This can further be supported by the fact that the same website also says

I do not see any reason why your wife should hesitate to travel, provided she has taken all necessary precautions, and that she places
her trust in Allah after having done her best, so as to provide the essential service that she offers the community.

http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/morals-and-manners/social-manners/169997.html

I also recomend that take a couple minutes of your time to read the book (books.google.com)

Understanding Women in Islam: An Indonesian Perspective
pages 103-105

NONE of the scholarly opinions surveyed shows that men should treat women like child.

It is STILL a paternalist society which treats ADULT women as if they were untrustworthy children. I really don’t give a crap about the crime statistics. It still boils down to that one salient fact.

All in the name of a non-existent deity, and only because she has no penis.

It is permissible for a woman to live alone if she doesn’t have a mahram, such as a husband, a brother, a sister, or children as long as she is honest and trustworthy

And herein lies one of the really huge problems: This exact same standard if applied to women should be applied in equal measure to the men and it isn’t.

No matter what arguements you present, in the end, what you have is a creed which marginalizes and infantalizes women for no better reason then that they have a vagina instead of a penis. It’s arrogant, and it’s condencending.

Oh, and by the way, pointing to crime statistics as if they somehow justify or even “prove” your creed is simply a non-sequiter. Regardless of what you think it achieves, it’s all based on the assumption that a given deity exists when there is zero evidence to back it up. No arguement you can offer is going to make this problem go away.

Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 23 February 2013 09:25 PM

It is permissible for a woman to live alone if she doesn’t have a mahram, such as a husband, a brother, a sister, or children as long as she is honest and trustworthy

And herein lies one of the really huge problems: This exact same standard if applied to women should be applied in equal measure to the men and it isn’t.

No matter what arguements you present, in the end, what you have is a creed which marginalizes and infantalizes women for no better reason then that they have a vagina instead of a penis. It’s arrogant, and it’s condencending.

Oh, and by the way, pointing to crime statistics as if they somehow justify or even “prove” your creed is simply a non-sequiter. Regardless of what you think it achieves, it’s all based on the assumption that a given deity exists when there is zero evidence to back it up. No arguement you can offer is going to make this problem go away.

.....and the crowd goes wild with applause!