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Spreading the truth about Islam
Posted: 20 September 2012 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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I can understand you confusion. I used to see differing opinions in some faiths and got confused too! The thing we should all realize, however, is that there is always a ‘mainstream’ view.

“Mainstream in practice often means that what you have is a lot of people who are just plain wrong about something.

And yes, billions of people can be wrong.

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Posted: 23 September 2012 10:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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I don’t have any confusion.  My personal rule is simple:  “Help others whenever I can, avoid hurting anyone if possible,
and enjoy life.”

I agree. But at the end of the day, how do you know what is good or bad. There are some universal facts which all (or most) people, cultures, and religions agree to such
as it being wrong to kill, steal, etc.  Others, however, are controversial.  What might be good in one culture may be bad somewhere else. So how do we know which one to pick?
This the point of the encyclopedia quote I mentioned ( you can see it at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/)

I agree with your initial argument that humanists can be studied, BUT WITH LIMITS.  You are free
to disagree with some religious teachings but don’t you agree that there some things we can learn from religion.

In addition, I don’t waste my time with silly fairytales about metaphysics, gods, spirit, etc.  I focus all my interest and
beliefs on the physical world, and it’s worked for me for 82 years.
Occam

That is the fallacy of appealing to anecdotal evidence.  http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#AnecdotalEvidence

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Posted: 23 September 2012 10:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 20 September 2012 04:46 PM

I can understand you confusion. I used to see differing opinions in some faiths and got confused too! The thing we should all realize, however, is that there is always a ‘mainstream’ view.

“Mainstream in practice often means that what you have is a lot of people who are just plain wrong about something.

And yes, billions of people can be wrong.

I agree that billions can be wrong. From personal experience, most Muslims (peaceful or terrorist) have virtually no knowledge of their religion whatsoever.
However, there are things which the theologians of Islam have agreed upon. If the ones who studied and mastered Arabic, jurisprudence,  and history cannot get it right, then how can
anyone else who has no training properly derive the answers.

Now this is regards to what a faith teachers.  Whether the claims of religion are factually correct is something that requires separate study.

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Posted: 23 September 2012 11:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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First, I try to avoid accepting ideas just because they come from authorities unless I have independent indications that they have physical data that I can observe.  Anything written in books or manuscripts is NOT physical data.

Second, I recognize that there is absolutely NO evidence of any god including Zeus, Allah, Jesus, etc. so I have no reason to bother with the long, arcane arguments based on a flawed first premise.

Third, just because much of the phenomena of our universe are extremely complex, doesn’t mean they occurred because of any supernatural being or force.  Anyone who claims that it’s unlikely that they could have occurred naturally doesn’t understand large sample probability.

Occam

[ Edited: 23 September 2012 11:24 AM by Occam. ]
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Posted: 23 September 2012 03:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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However, there are things which the theologians of Islam have agreed upon.

So what? These theologians are speculators on absolutely nothing. Contrived and self serving nonsense, just like the theologians of any other religion on the face of this planet.

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Posted: 24 September 2012 10:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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They do things to preserve their own ideologies.

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Posted: 24 September 2012 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 23 September 2012 10:22 AM

If the ones who studied and mastered Arabic, jurisprudence,  and history cannot get it right…

Great phrase, but you messed up the ending. It should read “then why should we believe any of it is real!”

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Posted: 26 September 2012 07:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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First, I try to avoid accepting ideas just because they come from authorities unless I have independent indications that they have physical data that I can observe.  Anything written in books or manuscripts is NOT physical data.

There is nothing wrong with this approach. However, the question is do you apply these same standards to the ideas of morality you practice?

 

For example:

One issue some people may disagree about is whether or not ‘harsh punishments’ should be used.  Most people (at least those that I have talked to) are horrified at the fact that some countries harsh judicial
punishments.
Yet criminologists know that these fears are misplaced.
In the criminology book Transnational and Comparative criminology, ( by Prof Sheptycki & Prof Wardak),  they discuss the affect of harsh punishments on the crime rate in Saudi Arabia. (Pages 94-95)

Studies have shown that prior 1932, (the year sharia was applied in Saudi Arabia) crime was a commonplace. After that year, crime rates decreased dramatically.
That is why the authors write:

        “Most scholars attribute the low Saudi Arabian crime rate mainly to the strong influence of Islam in various spheres of life in Saudi society, particularly to the implementation of Sharia”


After knowing this, many people change their mind about how harsh punishments should be viewed.

 

 

My point is, don’t you think it is necessary to study to see if our moral viewpoints are correct or not?
If you have already done so, then I am interested to hear about what you have learned smile

Second, I recognize that there is absolutely NO evidence of any god including Zeus, Allah, Jesus, etc. so I have no reason to bother with the long, arcane arguments based on a flawed first premise.

Scientifically, that is true.  The majority of scientists agree that God cannot be directly proven through scientific means.  But, don’t you think it is possible that if a book is proven to be from God,
then that can constitute proof.

 


BTW, I think I should just clarify to make sure we are on the same page. What is YOUR definition of God?  What do think of when the word ‘God’ is said?

 

 

Also, I agree that Jesus (PBUH) is not God, but there is no doubt that he exists.

World renowned biblical scholar Bart Erhman mentions:

              “Of the thousands of scholars trained in early Christainity… none of them, to my knowledge, has any doubts the Jesus existed”


      Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth
        By Bart D. Ehrman
            Introductory Pages

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Posted: 26 September 2012 07:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 23 September 2012 03:06 PM

However, there are things which the theologians of Islam have agreed upon.

So what? These theologians are speculators on absolutely nothing. Contrived and self serving nonsense, just like the theologians of any other religion on the face of this planet.


What is your proof? 
Do you properly know what Islamic law teaches and what non-Muslim scholars have said about Islam? If not, what are you basing this statement on?

Even assuming IF a religion makes ridiculous claims ( like the earth being flat), dont you think that the theologians WHO STUDIED RELIGION FOR YEARS AND YEARS know what their religion teaches about other things such as marriage, charity, prayer, warfare, etc.  If they do not disagree on something, that who can argue with this. If there is any possible objection to their reasoning, wouldnt there be at least a notable number of theologians who would speak against it.

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Say: He is God, the Unique.
God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
And there is none equal to Him.

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Posted: 26 September 2012 08:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 26 September 2012 07:42 PM

What is your proof? 
Do you properly know what Islamic law teaches and what non-Muslim scholars have said about Islam? If not, what are you basing this statement on?

Even assuming IF a religion makes ridiculous claims ( like the earth being flat), dont you think that the theologians WHO STUDIED RELIGION FOR YEARS AND YEARS know what their religion teaches about other things such as marriage, charity, prayer, warfare, etc.  If they do not disagree on something, that who can argue with this. If there is any possible objection to their reasoning, wouldnt there be at least a notable number of theologians who would speak against it.

So what? It wouldn’t be the first time millions of people were wrong. Millions of people believe Obama was born in Kenya. That doesn’t magically change his birthplace, it just makes them wrong.

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Posted: 26 September 2012 11:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Quoting I.J.A.H.:

There is nothing wrong with this approach. However, the question is do you apply these same standards to the ideas of morality you practice?

Yes, I do.

One issue some people may disagree about is whether or not ‘harsh punishments’ should be used.  Most people (at least those that I have talked to) are horrified at the fact that some countries harsh judicial

I think a major problem is that people suffer because of overpopulation.  Therefore, I think any punishment short of execution is a waste of time.  Doing it that way serves a number of moral purposes: 1. It helps cut down overpopulation, 2. It permantly assures that the person won’t transgress again, 3. It makes other potential transgressors think twice about doing anything. 

My point is, don’t you think it is necessary to study to see if our moral viewpoints are correct or not?

No, I’m quite sure of my ideas so I don’t need to waste my time studying other ones.

But, don’t you think it is possible that if a book is proven to be from God, then that can constitute proof.

No, it’s not possible that any book can be proven to be from some mythical, non-existent entity. so, no it’s not possible to prove that there’s a make-believe fairytale.

My statement was to say that Jesus as a god was non-existenct.  He may have existed as a human, but that’s of no interest to me.

Occam

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Posted: 27 September 2012 06:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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>>What is your proof?<<

The absolute lack of any evidence to suppor the assertion that any sort of god from any pantheon even exists.

>>Even assuming IF a religion makes ridiculous claims <<

It does. Verifiably so. See http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

In fairness: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.htm

>>dont you think that the theologians WHO STUDIED RELIGION FOR YEARS AND YEARS know what their religion teaches about other things such as marriage, charity, prayer, warfare, etc.<<

I’m sure they do know what their creed teaches. So what? It doesn’t make them right.

>>If they do not disagree on something, that who can argue with this.<<

The evidence to either support or refute whatever claim they’re making.

>>If there is any possible objection to their reasoning, wouldnt there be at least a notable number of theologians who would speak against it. <<

Maybe and maybe not. What do numbers have to do with it?

If it’s wrong, it’s wrong. The numbers of people who agree or disagree with a given premise is entirely irrelevant.

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Posted: 28 September 2012 10:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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So what? It wouldn’t be the first time millions of people were wrong. Millions of people believe Obama was born in Kenya. That doesn’t magically change his birthplace, it just makes them wrong.

Do these people have any evidence to support their views? Are they scholars? Suppose for instance that instead of millions of random people claiming this, THOUSANDS OF KENYAN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS say it.

Do you see the difference?

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Posted: 28 September 2012 10:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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BTW, just to be clear, I am in no way making any claim about where obama was born smile

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He does not give birth, nor was He born.
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Posted: 28 September 2012 10:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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I am confused.
What I asked about researching our viewpoints:

the question is do you apply these same standards to the ideas of morality you practice?

You replied

Yes, I do.

You said something similar before as well:

Much better to read the recent writings of humanists and decide for one’s self what one’s behavior should be

Yet you later say

No, I’m quite sure of my ideas so I don’t need to waste my time studying other ones.


As much I as I respect your ability to debate, I cannot understand your viewpoint.  These views seem contradictory.

 

Also please answer my previous question:

BTW, I think I should just clarify to make sure we are on the same page. What is YOUR definition of God?  What do think of when the word ‘God’ is said?

 

No, it’s not possible that any book can be proven to be from some mythical, non-existent entity. so, no it’s not possible to prove that there’s a make-believe fairytale.


That seems like circular reasoning.  It is like saying:

          A does not seem to exist
          Evidence B may provide evidence A does exist
          But because of hypothesis A,  evidence B is automatically invalid.


That isnt how the scientific method works.  You don’t interpret evidence to match you hypothesis. As the University of Rochester’s website states:


                      “no matter how elegant a theory is, its predictions must agree with experimental results if we are to believe that it is a valid description of nature.”

http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/appendixe/appendixe.html

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Say: He is God, the Unique.
God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
And there is none equal to Him.

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