I’m sure they do know what their creed teaches. So what? It doesn’t make them right.

This was my point. Refer to authorities to know what a certain teaching is, but do your own independent study to find the truth.

It does. Verifiably so. See http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

I looked at the creator of the website, Steve Wells, yet I could find no credentials which would make him qualified to talk about religion.

As one Encyclopedia of Philisophy states:

“You appeal to authority if you back up your reasoning by saying that it is supported by what some authority says on the subject. Most reasoning of this kind is not fallacious, and much of our knowledge properly comes from listening to authorities. However, appealing to authority as a reason to believe something is fallacious [color=blue]whenever the authority appealed to is not really an authority in this particular subject, when the authority cannot be trusted to tell the truth”

http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#AppealtoAuthority

Now, that doesnt mean we COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM, but we should take caution.

I am also not going to bother myself too much about this when I have statements from qualified scholars like these:

                1.          Maurice Bucaille, famous French doctor who undertook a scientific study of the quran.  His conclusion was:

              “I knew then that the Quran was the “Work of Allah” and had not been authored by any human being. I was also convinced that Mohammed (S.A.W.) was a true Prophet of God.”
           
              “The Church acknowledged and accepted these researches of Dr. Bucaille to be a
              valuable contribution to human knowledge and the author became famous all over the world”

                              http://www.islamicbulletin.com/newsletters/issue_6/embraced.aspx

                2.  France Edward Peters, Professor Emeritus of Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies and Religious Studies

                “there was little opposition from either inside or outside Islam—both Jewish and Christian dhimmis had learned their Arabic at the Quran’s knee, so to speak—to the Muslim Book’s    
                  aesthetic preeminance”
                 
                                Islam: A Guide for Jews and Christians
                                  page 118
             
                  3. . Darius Atighetchi    Professor of Bioethics in Italy

                “referring to human reproduction, the Koran shows several notations in agreement with the latest discoveries of embryology”

                                Islamic Bioethics: Problems and Perspectives
                                page 340

  In fairness: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.htm

I appreciate that you are trying to be fair, but lets please not try to insult other faiths.  Lets have a fruitful, constructive conversation without hurting anyone .

Read the rules, That color of blue is reserved for the Admins and Mods. You should go back and change to one of the other colors.

Asanta is quite correct I.J. You have the choice of going back, editing your post to change the color, or I can delete your post so you can write it again in allowed colors.

Occam

Or you could do this.  Like a boss.

Good Idea, D.M., and it’s pretty, too.

Occam

My apologies for using the wrong color.

TruthHathCome - 20 November 2008 04:05 PM

Looking for anyone interested in helping do so.  I am putting together material now, based on what I am reading, as well as my own research on the subject.  I believe I should start with:

A background of the founder of Islam, including what his followers and others say about him, as well as any quotes I can find.*
The truth about ‘peaceful Muslims’ and the misunderstanding the average individual has about *
The true purpose of Islam and the methods of terror used to spread their influence and terror*

I can produce lots of material just from those three topics, which could span many articles.  As I go along I am sure more substance will be brought to mind.  I am currently a pretty avid internet marketer so I am aware of how to get things seen on the internet.

I am inputting this all into a blog I just registered, and I will make the address available when it has at least some content.  It is registered on wordpress.com instead of it’s own domain due to the fact wordpress syndicates the content of their hosted blogs throughout their site and exposure is attained rather quickly in comparison to fresh domains.  I could use anything anybody is interested in contributing, commentary, videos, guest authoring, whether it be a 1 time thing, periodically, or on a regular basis.  I am looking to tackle this pretty hard, and push it into a lot of faces.

If you have any interest at all let me know, respond to this post or even e-mail me .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address). 

Thanks

Not long after 9/11/01, I decided to learn about Islam.  I bought a translation of the “Koran” and “The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Understanding Islam” (don’t scoff, it was very helpful).  I also got online, on a bulletin board run by Muslims, had dialogue with them and asked lots and lots of questions over a period of several months.

This was my point. Refer to authorities to know what a certain teaching is, but do your own independent study to find the truth.

I have. I’ve read the Bible, and I’ve also read Al Qu’ran. (And also the writings of Confucious as well as ancient Egyptian texts, and Greek Mythology.)

None of these…not even one…is any sort of objective testable evidence for the existance of any god or gods, and without that objective testable evidence, every single arguement you’re offered in what you’ve mistaken for a valid rebuttal is meaningless noise.

All you’re doing is quoting your dogmas and confusing it for fact.

I appreciate that you are trying to be fair, but lets please not try to insult other faiths.  Lets have a fruitful, constructive conversation without hurting anyone

Please read http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/show/indignation_is_not_righteous and I do mean read it.

You’re in a skeptics forum. There is no such thing as a proposal or creed which is not open to critical scrutiny. That website I gave you the links to are valid problems with all of those supposedly sacred books. They do not go away because you don’t like them, and it’s of no consequence that you feel insulted by them.

(This time, the formatting blocks worked!)

Do these people have any evidence to support their views? Are they scholars? Suppose for instance that instead of millions of random people claiming this, THOUSANDS OF KENYAN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS say it.

Do you see the difference?

There is no difference. it’s still an appeal to numbers and an appeal to authority.

Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 29 September 2012 06:52 AM

Do these people have any evidence to support their views? Are they scholars? Suppose for instance that instead of millions of random people claiming this, THOUSANDS OF KENYAN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS say it.

Do you see the difference?

There is no difference. it’s still an appeal to numbers and an appeal to authority.

Appealing to numbers and authority are seperate things altogether.

According to the University of Tennesse’s Online Encyclopedia of Philosophy

        “You appeal to authority if you back up your reasoning by saying that it is supported by what some authority says on the subject. Most reasoning of this kind is not fallacious, and much of our
        knowledge properly comes from listening to authorities. However, appealing to authority as a reason to believe something is fallacious whenever the authority appealed to is not really an
        authority in this particular subject, when the authority cannot be trusted to tell the truth, when authorities disagree on this subject (except for the occasional lone wolf), when the reasoner misquotes the
        authority, and so forth. Although spotting a fallacious appeal to authority often requires some background knowledge about the subject or the authority, in brief it can be said that it is fallacious to accept
          the words of a supposed authority when we should be suspicious of the authority’s words.”

The truth about Islam is that it is another of the many, many, many religions that has been developed over the course if human history by humans.  It is rather uniquely structured so as to be particularly effective, for better or for worse, in doing what religions do.

TimB - 29 September 2012 12:21 PM

The truth about Islam is that it is another of the many, many, many religions that has been developed over the course if human history by humans.  It is rather uniquely structured so as to be particularly effective, for better or for worse, in doing what religions do.

You left out a few ‘manys’! Well, actually, you left off a LOT of ‘manys’! And in another thousand years, who knows. Islam may have gone the way of Zeus, and there will be a thousand replacement religions…just as humans have always done!

It seems to me that it’s not the only religion that structured to be particularly effective.  Certainly Mormanism, Catholocism, and Scientology, to name a few, come to mind as quite well structured to be effective.

Occam

Occam. - 29 September 2012 11:35 PM

It seems to me that it’s not the only religion that structured to be particularly effective.  Certainly Mormanism, Catholocism, and Scientology, to name a few, come to mind as quite well structured to be effective.

Occam

Well, the term “effective” can cover a lot of territory.  But in terms of efficacy in maintaining itself and spreading its influence, I think that Islam is currently, one of the most effective if not, indeed the most effective.

Appealing to numbers and authority are seperate things altogether.

Problem is that you’re doing both at the same time, and you’re still ending up with the same core issue: Without any evidence to back up the assertion that god(s) even exist, all your arguements amount to nothing more then meaningless noise pollution.