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Spreading the truth about Islam
Posted: 01 October 2012 08:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 30 September 2012 09:15 AM

Problem is that you’re doing both at the same time, and you’re still ending up with the same core issue: Without any evidence to back up the assertion that god(s) even exist, all your arguements amount to nothing more then meaningless noise pollution.

Perhaps.  But those arguments also give people hope and security.  Along with vent for their rage and frustration, of course.  It all depends on who you’re arguing with.

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Posted: 01 October 2012 09:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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Perhaps.  But those arguments also give people hope and security.  Along with vent for their rage and frustration, of course.  It all depends on who you’re arguing with

 

And don’t forget comfort in old age. We’d like to think that we’re going to continue shoeing kids off our lawn for eternity!

 

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 01 October 2012 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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Perhaps.  But those arguments also give people hope and security.  Along with vent for their rage and frustration, of course.  It all depends on who you’re arguing with.

That’s nice but so what?

a falsehood which makes you feel good is still a falsehood. A lie which gives you hope is still a lie.

It isn’t real.

(But you knew that.)

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Posted: 02 October 2012 07:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 01 October 2012 04:06 PM

That’s nice but so what?

a falsehood which makes you feel good is still a falsehood. A lie which gives you hope is still a lie.

It isn’t real.

(But you knew that.)

The point is, even lies can help people.

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Posted: 04 October 2012 08:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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The point is, even lies can help people.

And being drunk makes one a lot happier then being sober, but again, so what? Just because one is happier or feels better doesn’t make whatever is doing it a good thing. A lie is still a lie and needs to be treated as such.

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Posted: 04 October 2012 11:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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The point is, even lies can help people.

Only if they CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH.

Occam

[ Edited: 04 October 2012 11:54 PM by Occam. ]
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Posted: 08 October 2012 08:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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Have you seen the short movie “Obsession, Radical Islam’s war against the west”? I’m actually writing you now from Saudi Arabia and was raised a Muslim and this movie actually is very close to the what is going on in most religious circles.


???????????????????

I have lived in Saudi Arabia too. I traveled around the country for 8 years, listened to sermons from Makkah & Madinah and I can tell you. I’ve also traveled around Pakistan and I can tell you
the film is absolutely false

I am not the only one who thinks so.

The scholar Eric Hamako described it as a

“conservative propaganda film.”

  Race, Oppression and the Zombie:
      Essays on Cross-Cultural Appropriations of the Caribbean Tradition

      page 110

      Edited By Christopher M. Moreman & Cory James Rushton

 

 

The book Islamophobia : The Challenge of Pluralism in the 21st Century  was co-edited by Professor John Esposito who has written on the Gallup Poll covering 90% of the world’s Muslim population,


It mentions the following about “Obsession” on page 83

        “a stereotype-filled propaganda film”

            Robin Saul, president and publisher of North Carolina News and Record refused to sell the film because
         
        “We didn’t see it as educational a all. It was fear-mongering and divisive.

 

With regards to Islamic law, you might find this quote interesting (the book was co-edited by a non-muslim professor of Criminology)

 

“Most Scholars attribute the low Saudi Arabian crime rate mainly to the strong influence of Islam in various spheres of life in Saudi society, particularly to the implementation of Shariah. “


            Transnational and comparative criminology
            Edited by Professor Sheptycki and Professor Wardack
            Pg 94-95

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God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
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Posted: 08 October 2012 09:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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None of these…not even one…is any sort of objective testable evidence for the existance of any god or gods, and without that objective testable evidence, every single arguement you’re offered in what you’ve mistaken for a valid rebuttal is meaningless noise.


Curious!  There is a verse of the quran which states:

 

2:23———————And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a Soorah
                      (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses besides God, if you are truthful.

 


The new world encyclopedia mentions:

            “There is consensus amongst Arab scholars to use the Quran as a standard by which other Arabic literature should be measured.”

(http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Quran_(Koran)#Literary_structure)


The Cambridge companion to the Qurʼān
  mentions:


The quran has enriched arabic poetry more than any other Arabic literary genre… The quran liberated arabic poetry from the narrow framework of existing genres and inspired new approaches to language, imagery, and the use of motifs.  Conventional standards and the theoretical analysis of language and literature can both be traced to hermeneutics of the quran….Jut as theologians referred to poetry to analyze the quran, the reverse also happened-and does still.

                ( page 130-132)
 


Frances Edward Peters, Professor Emeritus of Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies and History at New York University   writes

There was little opposition from either inside or outside Islam—both Jewish and Christian dhimmis has learned their Arabic at the Quran’s knew, so to speak—to the Muslim Book’s aesthetic preeminence.

                (Islam, a guide for Jews and Christians—— Page 118)


In his introduction of his translation of the quran,  19th century Cambridge scholar Edward Henry Palmer says

That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur’an itself is not surprising. In the first place, they have agreed before-hand that it is unapproachable, and they have adopted its style as the perfect standard; any deviation from it therefore must of necessity be a defect.


            (Page lv)

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Say: He is God, the Unique.
God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
And there is none equal to Him.

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Posted: 08 October 2012 12:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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I admire the strenth of your belief, I.J., but can you give ANY proof that the Quran was written by Allah rather than human scholars in the past?  Similarly, can you give any physical proof that Muhammad was a messenger from Allah rather than just another human who happened to write effectively?

Quoting what others have written (including from the Quran), no matter how expert you consider them, DOES NOT COUNT.

Occam

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Posted: 08 October 2012 04:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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Stone me (verbally) if you want but after reading that thread i often think that in 1000 or 2000 years the Nazi party will rise again as an accepted worldview, some historians will defend Hitlers wars and write books about the holocaust as an usual and not that cruel way of handling things in the 20 century(you know people back than didnt feel pain like we do), or they will tell “us” that the concentration camps were some sort of holiday inn, and that “Mein Kampf” is taken out of context and that you have to learn german* to fully understand it, and you would also have to study european history since the year 1000, you will hear that Hitler did good things too and that all he ever wanted was peace.

Wouldnt you hate to live in such a time? grin 

 

 


*Which is right, because there are sentences in the german version that are so damn stupid that translators have struggled to bring them in an acceptable shape, and you wont find em in the english version.

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Posted: 09 October 2012 07:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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Curious!  There is a verse of the quran which states:

2:23———————And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a Soorah
              (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses besides God, if you are truthful.

Sorry mate, but Al Qu’ran can no more prove itself then the Bible can.

Your reasoning is circular and fallacious.

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Posted: 09 October 2012 08:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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In his introduction of his translation of the quran,  19th century Cambridge scholar Edward Henry Palmer says


That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur’an itself is not surprising. In the first place, they have agreed before-hand that it is unapproachable, and they have adopted its style as the perfect standard; any deviation from it therefore must of necessity be a defect

And who are we to refute a 19th century scholar concerning the koran as a literary yardstick for all subsequent Arabic literature? Not me. I have BTW read the koran and keep a copy (in the original Arabic with translation beside the entries) in my library,  and consider it a valuable tool in studying it for it’s historical impact on Arabic culture, not as a dogmatic holy book. Medieval scripture is anachronistic in the 21st Century and if they knew then what we know now (i.e. scientific advancements in all fields) the book would be vastly different in it’s content. No desert spirits, talking angels, supernatural haven, fearful punishments for an endless list of wrongdoings, or mindless prayers to show servile fealty. Now that would be heaven on Earth.


cap’t Jack

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Posted: 09 October 2012 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 04 October 2012 08:58 PM

And being drunk makes one a lot happier then being sober, but again, so what? Just because one is happier or feels better doesn’t make whatever is doing it a good thing. A lie is still a lie and needs to be treated as such.

A lie is not the same as getting tanked and you know it.  Try harder next time.

And truth be told, religions aren’t really lies.  And you framing them as such is both unfair and, ironically, similar to how many religious folks frame the beliefs of those of other faiths.  That amuses me.  They’re far more complicated than simple lies.  Or alcohol.

Now tell me, chief.  How would purging religion from the world be good?  The way I see it, it would be, at the very best, a neutral thing.  The positives would likely about equal the negatives.  Short term, I think it would be bad.  Lots of wars, fighting, depression, all that.  Long term, no real difference.  No gain, no loss.  Homo sapiens will just find other things to fight over.  Atheist vs agnostic.  Humanist A vs Humanist B.  Falafels vs cous cous.  We’re good at fighting with each other.

And speaking of humanism and atheism (or agnosticism, etc, whatever); what exactly do they (we) offer in return?  What do we give to replace religion?  Hope?  Stripped to their core materialism, atheism, and the like are essentially nihilistic.  God didn’t make us to be his favored little children/toys/pets, we’re just clods of atoms puked out of dead stars and cobbled together from conscripted fish parts; the product of blind, pointless chance.  Yay us!  And we can’t even get close to the great prize of most religions: eternal happiness.  “Don’t despair folks!  After you die we’ll stuff you in the ground and maggots will eat your eyes!  Rejoice!”  That’ll give the downtrodden masses of the world something to hope for.

smirk

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Posted: 09 October 2012 11:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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Dead Monky - 09 October 2012 08:59 AM
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 04 October 2012 08:58 PM

And being drunk makes one a lot happier then being sober, but again, so what? Just because one is happier or feels better doesn’t make whatever is doing it a good thing. A lie is still a lie and needs to be treated as such.

A lie is not the same as getting tanked and you know it.  Try harder next time.

And truth be told, religions aren’t really lies.  And you framing them as such is both unfair and, ironically, similar to how many religious folks frame the beliefs of those of other faiths.  That amuses me.  They’re far more complicated than simple lies.  Or alcohol.

Now tell me, chief.  How would purging religion from the world be good?  The way I see it, it would be, at the very best, a neutral thing.  The positives would likely about equal the negatives.  Short term, I think it would be bad.  Lots of wars, fighting, depression, all that.  Long term, no real difference.  No gain, no loss.  Homo sapiens will just find other things to fight over.  Atheist vs agnostic.  Humanist A vs Humanist B.  Falafels vs cous cous.  We’re good at fighting with each other.

And speaking of humanism and atheism (or agnosticism, etc, whatever); what exactly do they (we) offer in return?  What do we give to replace religion?  Hope?  Stripped to their core materialism, atheism, and the like are essentially nihilistic.  God didn’t make us to be his favored little children/toys/pets, we’re just clods of atoms puked out of dead stars and cobbled together from conscripted fish parts; the product of blind, pointless chance.  Yay us!  And we can’t even get close to the great prize of most religions: eternal happiness.  “Don’t despair folks!  After you die we’ll stuff you in the ground and maggots will eat your eyes!  Rejoice!”  That’ll give the downtrodden masses of the world something to hope for.

smirk

OTOH, promises of eternal life after death may be promoting a culture of postmortem welfare dependency.

[ Edited: 09 October 2012 11:50 AM by TimB ]
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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 09 October 2012 09:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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A lie is not the same as getting tanked and you know it.  Try harder next time.

I don’t need to. The attempt to justify a lie as if it’s a good thing is fallacious in and of itself. Yeah, it may make some people feel good but so what??????

Just because it makes you feel good doesn’t make it a good thing.

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