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Spreading the truth about Islam
Posted: 10 October 2012 12:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 08 October 2012 09:44 AM

None of these…not even one…is any sort of objective testable evidence for the existance of any god or gods, and without that objective testable evidence, every single arguement you’re offered in what you’ve mistaken for a valid rebuttal is meaningless noise.

Curious!  There is a verse of the quran which states: 2:23———————And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a Soorah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses besides God, if you are truthful.
The new world encyclopedia mentions:“There is consensus amongst Arab scholars to use the Quran as a standard by which other Arabic literature should be measured.”
(http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Quran_(Koran)#Literary_structure)

The Cambridge companion to the Qurʼān  mentions:
The quran has enriched arabic poetry more than any other Arabic literary genre… The quran liberated arabic poetry from the narrow framework of existing genres and inspired new approaches to language, imagery, and the use of motifs.  Conventional standards and the theoretical analysis of language and literature can both be traced to hermeneutics of the quran….Jut as theologians referred to poetry to analyze the quran, the reverse also happened-and does still.( page 130-132)

Frances Edward Peters, Professor Emeritus of Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies and History at New York University writes
There was little opposition from either inside or outside Islam—both Jewish and Christian dhimmis has learned their Arabic at the Quran’s knew, so to speak—to the Muslim Book’s aesthetic preeminence. (Islam, a guide for Jews and Christians—— Page 118)

In his introduction of his translation of the quran,  19th century Cambridge scholar Edward Henry Palmer says

That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur’an itself is not surprising. In the first place, they have agreed before-hand that it is unapproachable, and they have adopted its style as the perfect standard; any deviation from it therefore must of necessity be a defect. (Page lv)

Yep, Islamic hubris elevated to its very heights.
Now what about the poetry that demands the slaughter of infidels? Is that an intractable perfect viewpoint also?

[ Edited: 10 October 2012 04:40 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 10 October 2012 08:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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Sorry to say it Dead Monkey….you are wrong….religion is lies, dirty hurtful lies.

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Posted: 10 October 2012 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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Here is another truth about Islam.  It has elements, such as the Taliban in Pakistan who kill little girls because they go to school.

Any Muslim who, himself, doesn’t have a vagina, should do whatever it takes to stop Muslims who do such a thing.  Where’s your frikkin’ jihad against little girl murderers, Muslims?

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 10 October 2012 04:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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sine dues - 10 October 2012 08:05 AM

Sorry to say it Dead Monkey….you are wrong….religion is lies, dirty hurtful lies.

I agree about religion, but there is the other situation.  If someone ask for your opinion about their appearance as they get ready to go to a party, you can say truthefully:  Geez, you’re so fat nothing other than a tent would look good on you.  Or lie:  Nice suit; you look good in it.

There are times when lies are more useful or gentle than truth.

Occam

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Posted: 10 October 2012 04:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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Occam. - 10 October 2012 04:04 PM
sine dues - 10 October 2012 08:05 AM

Sorry to say it Dead Monkey….you are wrong….religion is lies, dirty hurtful lies.

I agree about religion, but there is the other situation.  If someone ask for your opinion about their appearance as they get ready to go to a party, you can say truthefully:  Geez, you’re so fat nothing other than a tent would look good on you.  Or lie:  Nice suit; you look good in it.

There are times when lies are more useful or gentle than truth.
Occam

This is true bu only on a local level. In some societies being “well-rounded” is an asset and considered beautiful. The baroque period in art is proof of that.
Peter Paul Rubens (1577-1640) is famous for preferring very plump women as models.
Fernando Botero (active today) paints exaggeratedly fat people.

[ Edited: 10 October 2012 04:56 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 10 October 2012 08:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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Oh pleas don’t compare such things, it is a big difference if you tell some one something to comfort them,  make them feel better, or if you write a book and invent a god who justifies genocide and war, and I also think that Deadmonkey is wrong.
How would the world look if there were no religions?
I think it would be a different place, at least no one would blow himself up to get 72 virgins, at least some male chauvinists would need a good reason to oppress women, sex, masturbation etc. would be no sin, and some places in the world would be more peaceful.
Yes we would find reasons to fight over, but it is easier to get over simple things if there is no god who orders you to kill those infidels. Fans of two “hostile” Soccer/Football Teams can live in the same city, sit on the same table and in the same stadium without starting a mayor war, most religions have problems to get that accomplished. And I think the most significant difference would be that people would become more concerned about Life in this world instead, and don’t think about the so called afterlife.

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Posted: 11 October 2012 01:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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sine dues - 10 October 2012 08:05 AM

Sorry to say it Dead Monkey….you are wrong….religion is lies, dirty hurtful lies.

To you, maybe- not to everyone.

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Posted: 11 October 2012 06:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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Really mid-atlantic….truth is relative?.....truth is what you believe?.....truth is what gives you comfort?....ahhhhhh that makes me feel frustrated. Religion is a pack of falsehoods but if it makes you happy then dont worry thats ok!
Maybe it is not very nice to confront lies with the truth…..but that is a grown-up thing to do…...still believe in the tooth fairy?

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Posted: 11 October 2012 08:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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So out of everything I wrote, you’re all still hung up on the lies-can-be-good thing, huh?  rolleyes 

And why all this anger?  Good lord, it’s not like religions are the only things that make people act like irrational douches.  Judging by some of the posts I’ve seen on this board, being a humanist and/or irreligious does it too.  Humans seem to be innately irrational, self-righteous, and basically insane.  Religions, philosophies, governments, and everything else just give us frameworks to build our crazy around.

But let’s see, I’m thinking the next few replies will be something like, “Religion is a lie!  Evil evil evil!  Lies make happy bad thing so what douche!  Grow up!  NO TOOTH FAIRY!!!”

I can’t wait.

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Posted: 11 October 2012 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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So out of everything I wrote, you’re all still hung up on the lies-can-be-good thing, huh?

Hate to break it to you, but you’re the one who is running with that premise. Don’t be too surprised that you’re getting called on it so long as you persist in making rediculous assertions such as “Perhaps.  But those arguments also give people hope and security.”

That claim still get’s the “That’s Nice But So What?” Award. No matter how much comfort it may offer, a fraud is still a fraud and rates the same treatment.

It was George Bernard Shaw who stated it best when he said “The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.”

If you can’t grasp that core reality and the reasoning behind it, then you and I have nothing further to discuss.

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Posted: 11 October 2012 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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We value intellectual honesty.  The question discussed currently is whether intellectual dishonesty (which is a hallmark of most religions) causes more harm than good.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 12 October 2012 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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sine dues - 11 October 2012 06:05 AM

Really mid-atlantic….truth is relative?.....truth is what you believe?.....truth is what gives you comfort?....ahhhhhh that makes me feel frustrated. Religion is a pack of falsehoods but if it makes you happy then dont worry thats ok!
Maybe it is not very nice to confront lies with the truth…..but that is a grown-up thing to do…...still believe in the tooth fairy?

I never said truth is relative.

I suppose it would be more clear to say that truth and what works for you are not the same thing.

The believers like believing in the lies, and they seem to cheerfully not care about scientific evidence contrary to what they like.

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Posted: 12 October 2012 12:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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I think we tend to assume truth to be absolute, and that we know what it is.  I prefer to use the term, reality, which is absolute.  What we call truth is our view of reality.  As such, truth really varies according to the individual.  Some of us KNOW THE TRUTH OF THE EXISTENCE OF A GOD.  Others of us are equally certain of the non-existence of a god.  And still others think in terms of probabilities rather than absolutes so truth isn’t as big a monument or problem for them.

Of course, there will be those members here who will want to argue about whether reality is absolute, referring to changes over time, place, and even universe.  Fine, but that’s not what I’m talking about.  I’m limiting my statements to the prabmatic here and now.

Occam

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Posted: 12 October 2012 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 11 October 2012 10:31 AM

Hate to break it to you, but you’re the one who is running with that premise. Don’t be too surprised that you’re getting called on it so long as you persist in making rediculous assertions such as “Perhaps.  But those arguments also give people hope and security.”

I am?  You sure?  I thought I tried to move the focus toward the complex social and psychological issues at play in religion and maybe some thoughts on the costs vs benefits of removing religion from the world.  I suppose I could have been more blunt about it.  With like maybe size 20 font and bright red letters.  But I thought that would be crass and unecessary.  Maybe I was wrong though.

That claim still get’s the “That’s Nice But So What?” Award. No matter how much comfort it may offer, a fraud is still a fraud and rates the same treatment.

I could, here, ask you “Why?” or something, but nah.  Instead, I think I’ll blather on about whether or not religion is a lie.  And that depends.  I tend to think of lies as deliberate falsehoods from people who know better.  Some religions undeniably are lies.  They were likely constructed by frauds and hucksters looking to bilk or otherwise exploit people.  Most religions, however, I don’t feel can rightly be called lies.  Or falsehoods, frauds, whatever you prefer.  Most of them were likely created by people who earnestly believed what they preached.  (And I highly doubt whoever came up with Zeus knew about the charges of different ions in the atmosphere, but chose to lie to folks for some odd reason.)  I’d consider them more akin to failed hypotheses.  They were theories about the world and how it works.  They also served to strengthen social order and lend a sense of group cohesion.  People like pomp and ceremony and ritual and all that.

Of course, as our knowledge of the world improved and we started figuring out how things actually worked much of that fell aside.  And the development of things like nationhood and countries and a slew of other fancy gibberish worked to supplant the rest.  So why do they persist?  Well, it’s complicated.  Much, if not most, of it comes down to human nature.  People like to belong to things, to feel special, to feel like they’re a part of something bigger than themselves; religion provides that.  There are also things like social inertia, the tendency of societies to keep customs and whatnot alive out of habit.  And, of course, there are belief perseverence and other confirmation biases, social pressure, and a whole quarry full of other very interesting things to read up on.  Religions also provide nice, simple, easy to understand answers for life’s difficult questions.  Easy to understand explanations for how it all works and goes together.  And you get the idea.  They also appeal to people on an intuitive, emotional level.  Which, as any psychologist can tell you, reasonable or not emotive claims and arguments resonate with us and appeal to us far more than reasoned discourse.  Sad, but true.  But, of course, some folks do continue to preach and carry on with their religion even though they don’t necessarily really believe it.  (See social pressure above?)  But that’s probably been going on since religions were first invented.  Anyway, I’m getting bored with this so I’ll scribble on a little more and then I’m done.

I’ll ask you once more:
What do we, the non-religious, have to offer in return?
And how would scourging religion from the world make a difference?

Not that any of what I just wrote will matter.  “Religion lie!  You dumb stupid Monkyman.  Religion lie.  Religion doubleplusungood.  Move on from lie=good,” and all that.  rolleyes

This isn’t going to make any progress.  Is it?

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Posted: 13 October 2012 05:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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hey there dead monkeyman, I will concede the point. I will agree with you that falsehood may be a better choice of word then lies. I hope this helps with your thin skin. Yes, your eloquence betrays your incredible intellect. I said” religion is lies” for clarity and simplicity. As you have pointed out I have trouble stringing words together in sentence form…..

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