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Spreading the truth about Islam
Posted: 13 October 2012 07:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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I could, here, ask you “Why?” or something, but nah.  Instead, I think I’ll blather on about whether or not religion is a lie.

Blather on all you like. I’ve made my point and it seems you’re not getting it.

And if you think fraud is a good thing, then I have no reason to even bother reading anything you have to say.

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Posted: 17 October 2012 09:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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sine dues - 13 October 2012 05:46 AM

hey there dead monkeyman, I will concede the point. I will agree with you that falsehood may be a better choice of word then lies. I hope this helps with your thin skin. Yes, your eloquence betrays your incredible intellect. I said” religion is lies” for clarity and simplicity. As you have pointed out I have trouble stringing words together in sentence form…..

rolleyes

Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 13 October 2012 07:48 AM

Blather on all you like. I’ve made my point and it seems you’re not getting it.

And if you think fraud is a good thing, then I have no reason to even bother reading anything you have to say.

I quit.

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Posted: 05 November 2012 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 30 September 2012 09:15 AM

Appealing to numbers and authority are seperate things altogether.

Problem is that you’re doing both at the same time, and you’re still ending up with the same core issue: Without any evidence to back up the assertion that god(s) even exist, all your arguements amount to nothing more then meaningless noise pollution.

I never used those to prove that a god exists. I suggest you read from the beginning and you will say that I only wanted to prove that muslim scholars (emphasis on the word “scholars”) are qualified to talk about their faith.  The claims have to then be examined to see if the faith is true.


I do NOT argue that

1.  We should trust religious leaders to tell us which religion is true. Only that they can tell us what a religion teaches.  (A religion can be false while having teachings)

2.  We should trust the random people to tell us what a religion teaches (should we trust a mentally ill or illiterate person to tell us about his faith)

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Say: He is God, the Unique.
God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
And there is none equal to Him.

Quran (112: 1-4)

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Posted: 05 November 2012 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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I admire the strenth of your belief, I.J., but can you give ANY proof that the Quran was written by Allah rather than human scholars in the past?


Look at the verse I quoted

2:23———————And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a Soorah
              (chapter) of the like thereof
and call your witnesses besides God, if you are truthful.


No human has done so by consensus of both Muslim and Non-muslim scholars

 

Similarly, can you give any physical proof that Muhammad was a messenger from Allah rather than just another human who happened to write effectively?

The majority of Arabs were illiterate and the Prophet (PBUH) was no differentt.

See this article by Islamic scholar Salem al Hasi:
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/ethics-and-values/muslim-character/168915

Quoting what others have written (including from the Quran), no matter how expert you consider them, DOES NOT COUNT.


Then who should I refer to.
I quoted arabic non-muslim experts in arabic. The sources I quoted mention their consensus

Is there someone else you think is qualified to talk about Quranic eloquence?

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Say: He is God, the Unique.
God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
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Quran (112: 1-4)

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Posted: 05 November 2012 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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Now what about the poetry that demands the slaughter of infidels? Is that an intractable perfect viewpoint also?

Which verses of the Quran?

Before you quote me any verses,  I would like you consider


A.  The historical contexts

B. The textual context

C.  The commentaries of scholars

D. Make sure you appeal to the minority opinions while referring to   point C


Thus if you can find any verses, I suggest you refer to:

http://islamnewsroom.com/answers/329-quranmisquotes


Also see:
http://208.43.71.196-static.reverse.softlayer.com/english/shariah/contemporary-issues/islamic-themes/424694.html

Renowned scholar says:

  “The third category of proof is the meticulous correction and interpretation of the contemporary scholars on the subject of jihad. They have invested more time and effort than the preceding scholars, clarifying the issue beyond the shadow of a doubt, thus eliminating controversies. It was unanimously agreed that all the Prophet’s forays were only for the purpose of self protection and in order to safeguard the religion, and this is not a conjecture but a certitude”“

 


Mohatma Gandhi said:

“I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life.  It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to this friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission.  These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle.  When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet’s biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life.”


Who Is My Enemy?
By Lee Cam
page 2 of Chapter 8

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Say: He is God, the Unique.
God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
And there is none equal to Him.

Quran (112: 1-4)

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Posted: 05 November 2012 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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Here is another truth about Islam.  It has elements, such as the Taliban in Pakistan who kill little girls because they go to school.


The Taliban are in dominantly in Afghanistan (though there are some in Pakistan)

In any case, you’re refering to 2 countries (out of over 50) countries.    That is less than 4% 

That isn’t a good sample from scientific perspective (especially since most of those people barely know anything about religion)

Lets see the dominant scholarly view

The Taliban can be described as an extremist organization that was too rigid in the interpretation of the Islamic Shari`ah, which they wanted to implement in the country. Naturally, their bigotry came in for severe criticism from the most prominent Islamic scholars of the world. We should concede that the anarchy prevalent in the country after the war with the Soviet Union made the use of a certain amount of force unavoidable for the restoration of peace. And yet, no sensible person can find justification for some of the draconian measures taken by the Taliban.
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/islam-and-the-world/politics-and-economics/166241-taliban-and-al-qaeda-true-sects-of-islam.html?Economics=


Cambridge scholar Timothy Winter says:


Colleges such as the Saqlatuniya Madrasa in Cairo were funded and staffed entirely by women. The most recent study of Muslim female academicians, by Ruth Roded, charts an extraordinary dilemma for the researcher:

  ‘If U.S. and European historians feel a need to reconstruct women’s history because women are invisible in the traditional sources, Islamic scholars are faced with a plethora of source material that has only begun to be studied. [ . . . ] In reading the biographies of thousands of Muslim women scholars, one is amazed at the evidence that contradicts the view of Muslim women as marginal, secluded, and restricted.’

Stereotypes come under almost intolerable strain when Roded documents the fact that the proportion of female lecturers in many classical Islamic colleges was higher than in modern Western universities. A’isha, Mother of Believers, who taught hadith in the ur-mosque of Islam, is as always the indispensable paradigm: lively, intelligent, devout, and humbling to all subsequent memory.
http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/gender.htm

[ Edited: 05 November 2012 02:52 PM by I.J. Abdul Hakeem ]
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Say: He is God, the Unique.
God, the Self-Sufficient.
He does not give birth, nor was He born.
And there is none equal to Him.

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Posted: 05 November 2012 08:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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Despite more scholarly criticisms of the Taliban’s draconian interpretation and enforcemtn of Sharia Law (and they are not the only extremists in Islam), they are an element of Islam. Killing little girls for wantig to go to school, hasn’t happened lately, in any extremist elements of other religions, that I know of.  Vaginal mutilation of girls is another practice that has apparently not ended completely either.  I have no doubt that Islamic scholars would not interpret this as justifiable, but it has happened and perhaps still does by certain elements who consider themselves to be Muslim.  The criticism by scholars does not appear to be effective in eradicating some of the horrendous things that continue to be done under the auspices of Islamic faith.

[ Edited: 05 November 2012 08:37 PM by TimB ]
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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 05 November 2012 09:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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I never used those to prove that a god exists.

actually, you’ve been doing exactly that. The core problem which you keep ducking remains. Until you can prove with objective testable evidence that your god or any other exists, all your arguements are baseless noise pollution.’

You’re using a lot of words to say nothing.

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Posted: 06 November 2012 05:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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TimB - 05 November 2012 08:35 PM

Vaginal mutilation of girls is another practice that has apparently not ended completely either.

Jewish atheists mutilate their sons’ penises. Atheism is so evil.

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Posted: 06 November 2012 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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TimB - 05 November 2012 08:35 PM

Despite more scholarly criticisms of the Taliban’s draconian interpretation and enforcemtn of Sharia Law (and they are not the only extremists in Islam), they are an element of Islam. Killing little girls for wantig to go to school, hasn’t happened lately, in any extremist elements of other religions, that I know of.  Vaginal mutilation of girls is another practice that has apparently not ended completely either.  I have no doubt that Islamic scholars would not interpret this as justifiable, but it has happened and perhaps still does by certain elements who consider themselves to be Muslim.  The criticism by scholars does not appear to be effective in eradicating some of the horrendous things that continue to be done under the auspices of Islamic faith.

Muslims make up about 25% of the worlds population…there will be loonies in any segment of any population…but do not mistake cultural practice i.e female gential mutilation with religious practice…there are many cultures that practice it and it’s not exclusive to Islam.

In the Qu’ran there is nothing on the practice…and in Hadith’s they are weak at best.

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Posted: 06 November 2012 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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George - 06 November 2012 05:55 AM
TimB - 05 November 2012 08:35 PM

Vaginal mutilation of girls is another practice that has apparently not ended completely either.

Jewish atheists mutilate their sons’ penises. Atheism is so evil.

The female “circumciision” that is sometimes done, is equivalent to a male circumcision in which the entire penis was chopped off, not just the foreskin.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 06 November 2012 09:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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Affluenza - 06 November 2012 08:15 AM
TimB - 05 November 2012 08:35 PM

Despite more scholarly criticisms of the Taliban’s draconian interpretation and enforcemtn of Sharia Law (and they are not the only extremists in Islam), they are an element of Islam. Killing little girls for wantig to go to school, hasn’t happened lately, in any extremist elements of other religions, that I know of.  Vaginal mutilation of girls is another practice that has apparently not ended completely either.  I have no doubt that Islamic scholars would not interpret this as justifiable, but it has happened and perhaps still does by certain elements who consider themselves to be Muslim.  The criticism by scholars does not appear to be effective in eradicating some of the horrendous things that continue to be done under the auspices of Islamic faith.

Muslims make up about 25% of the worlds population…there will be loonies in any segment of any population…but do not mistake cultural practice i.e female gential mutilation with religious practice…there are many cultures that practice it and it’s not exclusive to Islam.

In the Qu’ran there is nothing on the practice…and in Hadith’s they are weak at best.

From wikipedia:
“In May of 2012 it was reported by several news sources that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was working to decriminalize female circumcision (FGM). According to reporter Mariz Tadros, “in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood have offered to circumcise women for a nominal fee as part of their community services, a move that threatens to reverse decades of local struggle against the harmful practice. ... ... Many of the Brothers (and Salafis) argue that while it is not mandatory, it is nevertheless mukarama (preferable, pleasing in the eyes of God)... ”

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 06 November 2012 10:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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TimB - 06 November 2012 09:14 AM
George - 06 November 2012 05:55 AM
TimB - 05 November 2012 08:35 PM

Vaginal mutilation of girls is another practice that has apparently not ended completely either.

Jewish atheists mutilate their sons’ penises. Atheism is so evil.

The female “circumciision” that is sometimes done, is equivalent to a male circumcision in which the entire penis was chopped off, not just the foreskin.

I disagree but fine, have it your way: atheism is a little less evil than Islam. Better?

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Posted: 06 November 2012 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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TimB - 06 November 2012 09:31 AM
Affluenza - 06 November 2012 08:15 AM
TimB - 05 November 2012 08:35 PM

Despite more scholarly criticisms of the Taliban’s draconian interpretation and enforcemtn of Sharia Law (and they are not the only extremists in Islam), they are an element of Islam. Killing little girls for wantig to go to school, hasn’t happened lately, in any extremist elements of other religions, that I know of.  Vaginal mutilation of girls is another practice that has apparently not ended completely either.  I have no doubt that Islamic scholars would not interpret this as justifiable, but it has happened and perhaps still does by certain elements who consider themselves to be Muslim.  The criticism by scholars does not appear to be effective in eradicating some of the horrendous things that continue to be done under the auspices of Islamic faith.

Muslims make up about 25% of the worlds population…there will be loonies in any segment of any population…but do not mistake cultural practice i.e female gential mutilation with religious practice…there are many cultures that practice it and it’s not exclusive to Islam.

In the Qu’ran there is nothing on the practice…and in Hadith’s they are weak at best.

From wikipedia:
“In May of 2012 it was reported by several news sources that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was working to decriminalize female circumcision (FGM). According to reporter Mariz Tadros, “in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood have offered to circumcise women for a nominal fee as part of their community services, a move that threatens to reverse decades of local struggle against the harmful practice. ... ... Many of the Brothers (and Salafis) argue that while it is not mandatory, it is nevertheless mukarama (preferable, pleasing in the eyes of God)... “

You just supported what I said. It even says it’s not mandatory. i.e imposing a culture not religious doctrine.

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Posted: 06 November 2012 12:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]
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ok affluenza, it sounds to me like you are dancing around….‘oh the religion never says to do this or that ...that is just just a few loonies…..and yet the practice of female discrimination continues…and islam is the doctrine pushing it forward…...but not that the religion says to do this ....and yet the torture goes on…..

....and yes male circumcision is genital mutilation that is tolerated in the west !

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