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Rick Warren
Posted: 24 December 2008 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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I was listening to/watching Rachel Maddow on MSNBC last evening: neither the media, nor the gay community is going to let this Warren thing go.  And I don’t think they should let it go.  The man is a nasty piece of work and he seems to part of an evidence trail that suggests that Obama has some real problems differentiating between “good” religious people and “bad” religious people - seemingly thinking that religion makes a good person.

Warren’s statements about gays are outrageous and disgusting.  If Obama really embraces diversity why didn’t (doesn’t) he ask for representation from all groups to read parts of the invocation (including atheists).  Shouldn’t we be pushing this? 

Again, let me call for us to work together, even if our chances are slim.

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Posted: 24 December 2008 06:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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As I understand it, Mr. Obama has arranged for another pastor, a civil rights fellow, to perform some other religious ritual as part of the inauguration. I suppose that, even as we speak, the conservative blogs are filled with outrage that Mr. Obama would permit such an unworthy person to appear on the inaugural program.

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Posted: 24 December 2008 08:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Yes, while some of us are screaming Warren is an abomination to the Separation of Church and State.  I can’t stand the man.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 25 December 2008 12:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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(I think) that part of the problem is Obama’s style of ‘reaching across the aisle’ bureaucracy. There are some aisles that should not, and do not deserve to be, reached for. Someone who equates being gay with pedophilia and incest is one such person.

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Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

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Posted: 25 December 2008 01:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Let’s not forget Warren’s views concerning women.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 25 December 2008 02:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Mriana - 25 December 2008 01:38 AM

Let’s not forget Warren’s views concerning women.

Oh, yes, when he thinks about them at all. Apparently having your husband use you as a punching bag on a daily basis is absolutely not a good reason to get a divorce. And, a woman should be subservient to her husband in all things. What a haven for wife beaters!

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Posted: 25 December 2008 07:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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This selection is abhorrent. Warren’s message is hateful and exclusive. That said, and while I’m glad people are protesting it, I can only hope that Obama has a broader strategy here. He needs every bit of political strength he can muster, and if this helps pull in some evangelicals and other Christians who might otherwise oppose him, then I can grudgingly live with the selection and hope the day will come, soon, when we can ask him why he is treating non-theists like his own parents as second-class citizens. Let’s be honest: if he wanted to be President, he had no choice.

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 25 December 2008 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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asanta - 25 December 2008 02:19 AM
Mriana - 25 December 2008 01:38 AM

Let’s not forget Warren’s views concerning women.

Oh, yes, when he thinks about them at all. Apparently having your husband use you as a punching bag on a daily basis is absolutely not a good reason to get a divorce. And, a woman should be subservient to her husband in all things. What a haven for wife beaters!

No, if his dogma is anything like my relatives, it’s not a good enough reason for divorce.  When they say “until death do you part”, they mean “until death do you part”, UNLESS the father of the wife approves the divorce and it has to be dire circumstances before that happens.  I know, because I lived the crap as a child and my mother didn’t get permission until I was 14 and my grandfather knew the WHOLE story.  It was only then that he and the rest of her family didn’t send us back again to live in hell.  I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… This is it and HUMANS make earth/this life, heaven, hell, or both.  It’s not something out there or some other demision, but something humans create while they are alive.  Warren obviously does a good job of creating hell for people here on earth with his delusional ideology.  He doesn’t give a damn about anyone except the god he created in his head and imposes on others.  I reject that sort of life and have fought that demeaning and dehumanizing theology all of my life.  If my relatives didn’t believe it so deeply, I probably wouldn’t have to fight it.

Ironically, my Christian friend something like, “It is good you broke free of that.  It’s too bad your mother can’t break free of it, but it is probably too late for her.” last night.  My friend knows I’m a humanist and is accepting of that.  She cannot accept doctrines like Warren and even see such doctrines as being a damaging thing too.  Too bad there aren’t more Christians like my friend.  Even Bob Price said to me once that my relatives haven’t made Christianity very appealing to me.  It is people like them who manage to talk me down when I get so wound up about insane and delusional dogma like Warren though and without getting on the defensive.  They even agree with many of the things I say about people like Warren.  Which is amazing.

However, true freedom, as I told my friend, would be to be able to tell your relatives who you really are and what you really believe without getting a hateful modern day inquisition.  I maybe free of the theology, but I do not have the freedom to share with my relative who I really am and what I really believe.  Such people as Warren get extremely hateful with those who don’t believe as they do and calling them Christophobes is mild in comparison to what it can be.  Although Christophobe is a first for me.  LOL  Sounds better than turning the word “atheist” into a word that sounds like a curse word.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 25 December 2008 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Mriana - 25 December 2008 10:39 AM
asanta - 25 December 2008 02:19 AM
Mriana - 25 December 2008 01:38 AM

Let’s not forget Warren’s views concerning women.

Oh, yes, when he thinks about them at all. Apparently having your husband use you as a punching bag on a daily basis is absolutely not a good reason to get a divorce. And, a woman should be subservient to her husband in all things. What a haven for wife beaters!

No, if his dogma is anything like my relatives, it’s not a good enough reason for divorce.  When they say “until death do you part”, they mean “until death do you part”, UNLESS the father of the wife approves the divorce and it has to be dire circumstances before that happens.  I know, because I lived the crap as a child and my mother didn’t get permission until I was 14 and my grandfather knew the WHOLE story.

Is that the part where ‘christian love’ and ‘charity’ come in? Somehow the message about simple human decency gets missed.  mad

Although Christophobe is a first for me.  LOL  Sounds better than turning the word “atheist” into a word that sounds like a curse word.

And after seeing what ‘god fearing christians’ have done through history to the current time—christophobia seems like a HEALTHY response to me! LOL

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Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

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Posted: 25 December 2008 07:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Official inauguration website and request for email updates: http://www.pic2009.org/content/home/

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Posted: 25 December 2008 09:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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asanta - 25 December 2008 02:20 PM
Mriana - 25 December 2008 10:39 AM
asanta - 25 December 2008 02:19 AM
Mriana - 25 December 2008 01:38 AM

Let’s not forget Warren’s views concerning women.

Oh, yes, when he thinks about them at all. Apparently having your husband use you as a punching bag on a daily basis is absolutely not a good reason to get a divorce. And, a woman should be subservient to her husband in all things. What a haven for wife beaters!

No, if his dogma is anything like my relatives, it’s not a good enough reason for divorce.  When they say “until death do you part”, they mean “until death do you part”, UNLESS the father of the wife approves the divorce and it has to be dire circumstances before that happens.  I know, because I lived the crap as a child and my mother didn’t get permission until I was 14 and my grandfather knew the WHOLE story.

Is that the part where ‘christian love’ and ‘charity’ come in? Somehow the message about simple human decency gets missed.  mad

Oh yes.  Just tonight my mother calls to wish me a Merry Christmas.  I asked her “did you have a happy holiday?” and she goes beserk because I called it a holiday.  She was not happy.  This Xian love apparently includes hitting offspring over the head if they disrespect “the Christian celebration”.  rolleyes  See, you must be abusive and hateful to force people, ESPECIALLY family members, to believe and speak as you do, for if not they are going to hell and you will never see them again.  I called it a holiday again before we hung up, and she went with the whimpering tearful, “You’re hurting me” crap, since the abusiveness didn’t work the first time.  These people are really insane and I have seen many of them at my relatives’ churches- all Evangelicals.  How does calling it a holiday hurt anyone, because that IS what it is, not only that, it was taken from the pagans, but don’t tell them that, unless you want round 2 of verbal abuse and hatred, just as they do to women and gays.  This seems to be how they function and then they turn around and call it “Christian love that saves”.

(Side note: for any liberal Xians on the board, I am not including ALL Xians.  I’m speaking of a particular group, so please don’t take it personally.)

Although Christophobe is a first for me.  LOL  Sounds better than turning the word “atheist” into a word that sounds like a curse word.

And after seeing what ‘god fearing christians’ have done through history to the current time—christophobia seems like a HEALTHY response to me! LOL

Yes, and in comparison to their other behaviours Christophobe name calling is mild.  They are like children who don’t get their way, esp when they feel like you are taking away their delusion.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 26 December 2008 01:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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I trust the rest of the day spent with your family more than made up for that unpleasantness.  long face
They are a product of their environment, I don’t know what else to say except that I’m glad you outgrew those cultural ‘norms’. Unfortunately, as I’ve found with some of MY intractable family members…..you can lead a horse to water….(sigh) downer

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Posted: 26 December 2008 08:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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“The War on Christmas”—an invented and imaginary war if ever we saw one. I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s, looong before ‘political correctness’ and the religious backlash. I can clearly remember my folks getting Christmas cards that said ‘Season’s Greetings’ and ‘Happy Holidays.’ No one thought anything of it.

Mriana - I feel your pain. Most of my relatives are RR evangelicals, too. You might want to inform your mom that Happy Holiday is nothing more than a slightly altered version of Happy Holy Day which Christians have used for hundreds of years. By making it plural, we include New Year’s and any other religious celebration occuring at the same time. Big deal!

Several years back, I could count on getting a barrage of e-mails condemning the war on Christmas. They were usually quite lengthy and the font increased in size as you worked your way to the end. The last line was always a charge to take back Christmas and was almost always in CAPS. They were always ‘forwards’ sent to everyone in the sender’s contact list. I solved this problem and did my patriotic secular duty by composing a reply that gave them a history lesson, corrected their errors, and admonished them that if they had the time and energy to be reading and forwarding this crap, they could better spend that time and energy by putting their beliefs into action. How about visiting a charity’s website and making a donation, or visiting a soup kitchen and volunteer to serve dinner to the poor. I always used the ‘reply all’ button.  LOL

I haven’t gotten any of those emails in two years now.

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Posted: 26 December 2008 01:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Now that you mention it, I remember those cards too! They weren’t such a big deal then, just a friendly creative change of pace.
I fail to understand the threat implied by ‘Why believe in a god, be good for goodness sake!’. When you are trying to teach a two year old rules, they often don’t have the self control to follow through without supervision. As a child grows into an adult, we expect them to have the internalized impulse controls to follow basic rules of behavior without having someone looking over their shoulder all of the time. In fact, you would consider that adult to be very strange (and probably have a psychiatric diagnosis ), if he or she is unable to do ‘good’ unless they are constantly observed/supervised! I think these people are called sociopaths!

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Posted: 26 December 2008 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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With this talk of the “War on Christmas” I just have to share this letter I wrote to the editor of our local paper last year:

“There is no war on Christmas. People have been wishing others “Happy Holidays” for hundreds of years.

(Name Withheld) seems to be poorly or partially informed, based on his letter to the editor on December 25. The statements in his letter are based on mistruths and exaggerations. The Alliance Defense Fund’s (ADF’s) war on Christmas is a huge fundraiser. In 2006 ADF sold “Christmas Packs” for $29, consisting of a memo and two lapel pins. This fundraising money was supposed to support their “900 lawyers standing by to defend Christmas”. But if you search comprehensive news database Nexis for ADF-sponsored Christmas lawsuits in 2006 zero results are returned. So where did all the fundraising money for the war on Christmas go? Where are all the lawsuits by people who have not been allowed to say “Merry Christmas?”

Many of the religious rights’ examples of “War on Christmas” that they have used in fundraising efforts have turned out to be rumors. For example, In 2005 the Religious Right claimed Saginaw, Mich. schools prohibited singing Christmas songs. The School’s superintendent responded that no such policy existed.

In another ludicrous claim, Glendale-River Hills School District in Wisconsin was said to have prohibited Christmas songs but allowed Hanukkah songs. The school district posted a response saying they had no idea where this rumor started and stated they do sing Christmas songs in their holiday program.

In the last of the dozens of examples I could possibly give, the Raleigh, NC, town council was supposedly under siege from the ACLU stating that they could not erect a Christmas display on public property (which included a Nativity scene, snowmen, reindeer and a menorah). In actuality, the display was created by a private group, not the city council. The North Carolina ACLU Executive Director said her group never threatened to sue and does not oppose this type of balanced display on public property.

And what of all the “traditional” Christmas songs from the 1930’s, 40’s and 50’s? I seem to hear a lot of “Happy Holidays”, “Holiday Season” and “Holiday Time” as well as generic references to snowfall and sleigh rides in the music. Where was the uproar? Where was the claim that the liberals were trying to get rid of Christmas?

And it seems even our President, the darling of the conservatives, sends out the White House “Holiday Card” with no “Merry Christmas”. Where is the uproar that he is part of this anti-Christmas conspiracy?

I’ve lived and worked in Connecticut for 32 years. I attended Connecticut public schools. I have never, ever, been told I could not wish someone a Merry Christmas. I see Christmas displays at the mall and in offices. I see lights all over town. I see and hear people wishing each other Merry Christmas AND Happy Holidays. Even Happy New Year.

So relax, and be careful what organizations you are sending your hard earned money to. They may have other agendas in mind.

Merry Christmas AND Happy Holidays to you.”

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Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it’s a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.    - Lex Luthor

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