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Hi, I’m grumpy from the Heathen Hangout
Posted: 04 January 2009 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Mriana called to mind an experience when I was in high school.  A small group of us hung out together.  We were all interested in chemistry or electronics and seemed to have moderately similar intellectual capabilities.  The first week of school we were all given IQ tests, then went on to our beginning algebra class.  One friend had as severe cold at the time.  It turned out to be pneumonia and he was out of school for about four weeks.  When he got back he had missed the fundamentals of algebra and never caught up. 

Since we didn’t care for adult rules, but weren’t about to challenge them crudely as the jocks did, we learned the school’s systems and how to work within them.  We figured out how to learn our IQ scores.  Five of us were appreciably above 140.  The friend who had the beginnings of pneumonia when he took the test had a score of 105.  I now realize that it was way off.  However, the rest of us didn’t include him as much as we had before, he got poorer and poorer academic grades, took two years of college then quit and became a technician.  The rest of us became one chemist, three physicists,  and one lawyer (later a judge). 

This indicates to me that one’s self-image strongly determines one’s success.  That friend saw himself as not very bright because he had a low IQ and did poorly in beginning algebra.  He then set himself up to fail.  I’m certain that had he been in good health, he would have gone on to get at least a BS and quite probably an advanced degree in electronic engineering.

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Posted: 04 January 2009 07:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Yes, sometimes knowing your [exact] score can do more harm than good.  Thus why I fudged a little- to avoid doing harm and because his score more than likely is not accurate.  As your friend showed, knowing can sometimes hurt one’s self-esteem and so they don’t do as well as they could.

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Posted: 05 January 2009 10:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Mriana - 04 January 2009 07:40 PM

Yes, sometimes knowing your [exact] score can do more harm than good.  Thus why I fudged a little- to avoid doing harm and because his score more than likely is not accurate.  As your friend showed, knowing can sometimes hurt one’s self-esteem and so they don’t do as well as they could.

Mriana, when my oldest was in Kindergarten, he was having difficulty learning to read and write, despite his ample exposure at home. I quickly figured out something was wrong(dyslexia was a new concept at the time), and tried to get the teacher to help figure out the problem. She insisted that he was just ‘slow’ and that I should just accept it, because “all mothers like to think they had bright children”. I responded that any 5 year old who could tell me the model of any car going down the street was NOT ‘slow’. By the end of the year, she had been fired (I was complaining to the principle—it was a private school), but his self esteem had been crushed by then. His first grade teacher accurately diagnosed him (she happened to have a M.S. in special education although she was teaching in a private elementary school). With intensive therapy from the school, who instructed me in how to help, he learned to read by the third grade, by the fourth grade was reading at 6th grade level, and continue to surpass his peers into high school. However, he continued to believe he was “not very smart” until he was administered an I.Q. test in the 11th grade by his school (they administer it to the entire class), and when they compared scores, he realized he had one of the highest in his class. He told me that he thought I was just telling him he was smart because I HAD to! He went on to take AP calculus as a 12th grader and now has a MBA. If he had gone to a public school where I.Q. testing is not allowed in CA, I do not believe he would have been as successful in college, and would have continued to be hampered by the Kindergarten teachers unfortunate assessment. (sorry about the length of the post)

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Posted: 05 January 2009 10:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Your son was lucky.  Sometimes IQ tests don’t work out that way.

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Posted: 05 January 2009 10:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Mriana - 05 January 2009 10:14 AM

Your son was lucky.  Sometimes IQ tests don’t work out that way.

So true!

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Posted: 05 January 2009 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Asanta, I didn’t realize IQ tests are no longer allowed in California schools. When I was in elementary and high school in Southern California I can recall at least four that were administered.  I learned the words, “syzygy” and “bosky” in the sixth grade because they were on one.  smile

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Posted: 05 January 2009 04:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Occam - 05 January 2009 11:32 AM

Asanta, I didn’t realize IQ tests are no longer allowed in California schools. When I was in elementary and high school in Southern California I can recall at least four that were administered.  I learned the words, “syzygy” and “bosky” in the sixth grade because they were on one.  smile

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They were seen as ‘handicapping’ to the minorities that did not do well with them and slanted to the ‘white culture’ although both of my sons did well on them (gosh—imagine how much BETTER they would have done if they had actually BEEN white!!! LOL ).

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Posted: 05 January 2009 06:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Recalling quite a few white kids in my elementary and high school, I doubt than any amount of slanting toward a ‘white culture’ could have helped those guys. LOL 

While they used the excuse of not wanting to handicapping the minorities, I think it probably had something to do with how so many kids of the then dominant culture were doing so badly on the tests.

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Posted: 05 January 2009 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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It’s still legal in Missouri, but even though my sons are biracial, I doubt that was really what hurt my younger son, given that I raised them by myself.  You can’t truly learn about your “other side” of your family tree through books, only the history.

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Posted: 05 January 2009 08:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Mriana - 05 January 2009 07:59 PM

It’s still legal in Missouri, but even though my sons are biracial, I doubt that was really what hurt my younger son, given that I raised them by myself.  You can’t truly learn about your “other side” of your family tree through books, only the history.

I consider my sons bi-cultural since my cultural upbringing was 180 degrees different from that of their father or the community where we settled. They were influenced both by my cultural upbringing as well as their father’s, I think ultimately I won out (since they are both atheist as well), although they move within the culture of our area much more comfortably than I ever will.

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Posted: 05 January 2009 09:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Yes, I hear you, asanta.  Even I see a different culture among my theist relatives.  I value learning, while they value the Bible, stating ignorant things with a laugh like (my aunt said this one), “I don’t know how scientists come up with the things they do.  It’s not in the Bible.”  Do you know how many times I’ve wanted to almost shout, “COME ON!  A bat is NOT a bird!  Get your head out of the Dark Ages!”  It seem like a whole different world when I visit them, if I visit.  My mother and I had a discussion about human development.  She had no idea what a zygote or any other terms were, didn’t even comprehend cell division, and asked “where did you learn this?”  I replied, “I got an education, Mother.”  She said, “I don’t understand.”  What was there not to understand?

Now while I don’t believe she nor her sister could do well on an IQ test, I don’t believe they are morons (sorry for the archaic vocabulary), but I do think they are ignorant/uneducated about many things.  I would hate to see what would happen if I attempted to explain what was happening neurologically when they are in church or when they mentioned a “religious” experience with their “God”.  They’d never comprehend what I was trying to tell them, no matter how simple I tried to make it.  The problem is, they believe a real education, esp one not Biblically based, destroys one faith in God.  For me that is a poor excuse for not getting a real education and keeping their minds in a superstitious dark age.  IF that were true, why do some scientists have a little “God box” tucked away in their brains?

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Posted: 05 January 2009 09:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Most of our cultural differences come from the fact that I was born outside of the mainland US and grew up mostly in Europe, North Africa and the South Pacific courtesy of the US Navy, whereas their dad grew up exclusively in the SF bay area, and had never traveled at all. We had completely different world views and experiences and even tastes in food. It is a wonder that we stayed together long enough to create two children! LOL

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Posted: 05 January 2009 09:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Better than educated and uneducated differences.  LOL

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 11 January 2009 05:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Here’s hoping I catch all the loose ends.

No, I didn’t go to any Dead concerts in my years in the Bay Area. My second stepfather, Mom’s fourth hubby, was into classical music and brought me up to enjoy mostly that.

Of all the places I’ve lived, the Bay Area is where I would stay if I could afford it. I love the place. My second choice would be Belize.

My real life first and second names are immensely jokeable.  That’s why I eventually killed Mom and buried her behind the skeptic tank.* When you make a joke on someone’s name, it matters not how original or creative you think yourself, the jokee has heard it a thousand times before they can legally drink, and is damned sick of it. Now, a screen name isn’t the same thing, I realize, but it still pushed a button I thought was dead a long time ago.

Someone (Occam) picked up on my use of the word “moron” and turned this thread into a pretty interesting read. That’s no longer a word with any valid technical meaning. If a bunch of professional educators and psychologists were sitting around talking, and one of them used the word, that person should be driven from the room in a hail of ashtrays and beer cans. This ain’t that.

Hi, Fizzle. I expect I’ll find some others here I recognize.

* Step away from the keyboard, dammit! That was deliberate.

[ Edited: 11 January 2009 06:03 PM by Grumpy ]
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