Martinus-
With so many jobs going to China, I expect that your labor union movement will be championing Chinese workers now, and celebrating the fact that 500 million of them have been lifted from poverty? And Humanist labor people are the first to recognize that having a job is far better than arguing for $75/hr on a Detroit assembly line, only to end up in the street?

Is this meant to be inflammatory? Because no Auto worker makes close to $ 75/hr on any assembly line. Marty perhaps you’re one of the millions of people who would rather sit down in hole, and complain about what the other guy has, rather than pull yourself up, and realize the wages you’re worth? This is one of the biggest problems of Organizing Labor everywhere. And I have seen first hand, companies capitailize on this resentment. The kind of easily exploitable resentment you are possibly displaying.

VYAZMA - 25 April 2009 11:28 AM

  Martinus-
With so many jobs going to China, I expect that your labor union movement will be championing Chinese workers now, and celebrating the fact that 500 million of them have been lifted from poverty? And Humanist labor people are the first to recognize that having a job is far better than arguing for $75/hr on a Detroit assembly line, only to end up in the street?

Is this meant to be inflammatory? Because no Auto worker makes close to $ 75/hr on any assembly line. Marty perhaps you’re one of the millions of people who would rather sit down in hole, and complain about what the other guy has, rather than pull yourself up, and realize the wages you’re worth? This is one of the biggest problems of Organizing Labor everywhere. And I have seen first hand, companies capitailize on this resentment. The kind of easily exploitable resentment you are possibly displaying.

The only thing inflammatory here is the fact, Vy.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/12/11/national/w173226S81.DTL
“GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses.”

I think it’s fair to say that if GM was paying $69, then the UAW had indeed argued for $75 at some point.

No apology needed.

Now you might maintain that the worker never sees that $69, but I can tell you that GM does, and that’s who pays it . Maybe it’s time for US workers to pull themselves out of the idea that any company can rationally pay them that, or ever will again?

Further, it is a serious truth that the 25:1 wage “advantage” western workers have enjoyed vs Asian workers must be radically reduced, and I mean radically, or no sane factory manager is going to set up anywhere near the US anytime soon.

Only the devaluation of the US dollar, and Sterling, and the Euro and Yen, which race is underway, together with a ballooning of gross costs of Asian workers due to them finally acquiring some benefits and pensions has any hope of bringing that discrepancy under control. Ergo my urging to Wes that he promote that - you see the obvious irony as inflammatory. I don’t, I see big labor as being incapable of it and doomed, its time passed. Unions never argued for full employment, just more for their own members. They could care less about those on the outside.

If you can’t see how serious this is yet, I recommend the message of Yu Dan to you, and a large part of the American public, as a primer. Because the jobs are not coming back until somebody like Obama wakes up on your behalf.

Martinus - 25 April 2009 08:49 AM

wesmjohnson - 25 April 2009 08:18 AM

BTW I am also a very big labor union supporter!  My wife was in a leadership position in an AFSCME local in Toledo a ways back.  The need for unions has grown I think but the need is lost on many.  Somehow the excesses of a few union leaders has soured many on the movement, but the need is there!  Up scope!
Wes

With so many jobs going to China, I expect that your labor union movement will be championing Chinese workers now, and celebrating the fact that 500 million of them have been lifted from poverty? And Humanist labor people are the first to recognize that having a job is far better than arguing for $75/hr on a Detroit assembly line, only to end up in the street?

The only way to bring full employment back to the US will be to arrest and reverse the flow of factories offshore, and the best way to do that is to greatly devalue the US dollar (which Obama is doing, printing money) and to greatly raise the package of salary/benefits/pensions for Asian workers.

As a Humanist labor supporter, that will be your policy, I trust, advocating for them now, from a wider and wiser global perspective?

Your tone is offensive and entirely not in keeping with polite discourse.  Please do not accuse me of seeing the world in a manner at some skewed angle to your own and provide unsubstantiated political opinion.  I have previously respectfully asked for you to inform me about your vision of Humanism, specifically Humanism II of which I have been unable to find anything.  I still await your definition of Humanism and the path to it.

wesmjohnson - 25 April 2009 01:20 PM

Martinus - 25 April 2009 08:49 AM

wesmjohnson - 25 April 2009 08:18 AM

BTW I am also a very big labor union supporter!  My wife was in a leadership position in an AFSCME local in Toledo a ways back.  The need for unions has grown I think but the need is lost on many.  Somehow the excesses of a few union leaders has soured many on the movement, but the need is there!  Up scope!
Wes

With so many jobs going to China, I expect that your labor union movement will be championing Chinese workers now, and celebrating the fact that 500 million of them have been lifted from poverty? And Humanist labor people are the first to recognize that having a job is far better than arguing for $75/hr on a Detroit assembly line, only to end up in the street?

The only way to bring full employment back to the US will be to arrest and reverse the flow of factories offshore, and the best way to do that is to greatly devalue the US dollar (which Obama is doing, printing money) and to greatly raise the package of salary/benefits/pensions for Asian workers.

As a Humanist labor supporter, that will be your policy, I trust, advocating for them now, from a wider and wiser global perspective?

Your tone is offensive and entirely not in keeping with polite discourse.  Please do not accuse me of seeing the world in a manner at some skewed angle to your own and provide unsubstantiated political opinion.  I have previously respectfully asked for you to inform me about your vision of Humanism, specifically Humanism II of which I have been unable to find anything.  I still await your definition of Humanism and the path to it.

Please reply to points made and not make ad hominem attacks. I tolerate your didacticism re: atheism as being encased in Humanism without whining.

Humanism II is my own terminology for Humanism that has moved on from atheism being at all relevant. There is no appeal to authority available, sorry.

The comments re: labor would be smart to support Chinese workers to close the wage gap stand, however outside your universe of discourse that might be.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/12/11/national/w173226S81.DTL
“GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses.”

I think it’s fair to say that if GM was paying $69, then the UAW had indeed argued for $75 at some point.

Now you might maintain that the worker never sees that $69, but I can tell you that GM does, and that’s who pays it . Maybe it’s time for US workers to pull themselves out of the idea that any company can rationally pay them that, or ever will again?

Only the devaluation of the US dollar, and Sterling, and the Euro and Yen, which race is underway, together with a ballooning of gross costs of Asian workers due to them finally acquiring some benefits and pensions has any hope of bringing that discrepancy under control. Ergo my urging to Wes that he promote that - you see the obvious irony as inflammatory. I don’t, I see big labor as being incapable of it and doomed, its time passed. Unions never argued for full employment, just more for their own members. They could care less about those on the outside.

I’ll concede to your points Marty. Up until the last bit about Wu Tang, or whoever that is. I’ve brought up similar notions in other threads. These regarding our steady decline towrads 3rd World status. I don’t want to envision a global harmony when it comes to labor, or economy. Everything you could possibly rebut to that Marty, I already know. I just don’t want to face it. I have too many roots in my Industrialized upbringing. Besides the Global Economic Harmony and balance you speak of is a Crap Shoot anyways. You know the players. It’s the same old game. I still think there is still a place for unions. I see new shops, and workers get Unionized all the time.

I’ll concede to your points Marty. Up until the last bit about Wu Tang,

Yu Dan is a woman popularizing Confucius (again) in China, to the consternation of academics. We need her “less is more” thinking big time, and it’s legit. Simplicity can do a hell of a lot for your blood pressure.

I still think there is still a place for unions. I see new shops, and workers get Unionized all the time.

My father was a union surveyor and that fact made us middle class.

I’d like to see a Chinese Woody Guthrie roam the rods in China with a Pete Seeger there too to keep him in tune. And it will come, the western labor movement was over-successful in places like England and ended up breaking the auto industries there and here.

But they were just doing their thing, it’s up to others to keep a halter on them and on the Wall Street boys, lest our communal greed bury us completely.

Martinus - 25 April 2009 02:12 PM

wesmjohnson - 25 April 2009 01:20 PM

Martinus - 25 April 2009 08:49 AM

wesmjohnson - 25 April 2009 08:18 AM

BTW I am also a very big labor union supporter!  My wife was in a leadership position in an AFSCME local in Toledo a ways back.  The need for unions has grown I think but the need is lost on many.  Somehow the excesses of a few union leaders has soured many on the movement, but the need is there!  Up scope!
Wes

With so many jobs going to China, I expect that your labor union movement will be championing Chinese workers now, and celebrating the fact that 500 million of them have been lifted from poverty? And Humanist labor people are the first to recognize that having a job is far better than arguing for $75/hr on a Detroit assembly line, only to end up in the street?

The only way to bring full employment back to the US will be to arrest and reverse the flow of factories offshore, and the best way to do that is to greatly devalue the US dollar (which Obama is doing, printing money) and to greatly raise the package of salary/benefits/pensions for Asian workers.

As a Humanist labor supporter, that will be your policy, I trust, advocating for them now, from a wider and wiser global perspective?

Your tone is offensive and entirely not in keeping with polite discourse.  Please do not accuse me of seeing the world in a manner at some skewed angle to your own and provide unsubstantiated political opinion.  I have previously respectfully asked for you to inform me about your vision of Humanism, specifically Humanism II of which I have been unable to find anything.  I still await your definition of Humanism and the path to it.

Please reply to points made and not make ad hominem attacks. I tolerate your didacticism re: atheism as being encased in Humanism without whining.

Humanism II is my own terminology for Humanism that has moved on from atheism being at all relevant. There is no appeal to authority available, sorry.

The comments re: labor would be smart to support Chinese workers to close the wage gap stand, however outside your universe of discourse that might be.

Please provide historical references (for Humanism moving on), logical support or argument, statement of principles, a plan of how your vision would come to be with an applicable time frame and/or any other evidence you have that defines and supports your Humanist II claims.