If the Western/Asian wage ratio was 20:1, was that slavery?
Posted: 23 February 2009 07:27 PM   [ Ignore ]
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I’m just wondering if maybe a historian is going to emerge from the shadows and finally advise Western society that its enslavement of the rest of the species, since the Greeks and Romans really and based on its weapons culture, is at last over?

Isn’t it a “globalization” pipedream whereby Asians will always make $80/month, whereas the West will somehow continue to earn thousands (and not too much manual work, please, we’re British..) and is this de facto slavery based on weapons? Please explain the difference after you have worked a day in a Vietnamese factory for $3.

Might that be the real reason Iran must be precluded from nukes, while nobody in the press even mentioned that Obama offered the Russians an 80% reduction in nukes (warmly received) and - did you read that?
No?
Bother you?

[ Edited: 23 February 2009 07:37 PM by Martinus ]
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Posted: 23 February 2009 07:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Western society that its enslavement of the rest of the species, since the Greeks and Romans really and based on its weapons culture, is at last over?

I think that overstates the case a bit. Western peoples only began having a big impact after 1500 CE. Prior to that, lots of other cultures were busy enslaving others. 

Isn’t it a “globalization” pipedream whereby Asians will always make $80/month

I can’t imagine any mature policymaker thinking that. After all, if Asians earn only $80/month, they won’t have any money to buy our stuff.

whereas the West will somehow continue to earn thousands

I don’t consider the wealth of the West to be an evil.

(and not too much manual work, please, we’re British..)

The shift from manual to cerebral labor seems quite desirable to me. Do you object to that shift?

is this de facto slavery based on weapons?

No.

Please explain the difference after you have worked a day in a Vietnamese factory for $3.

It would cost me several thousand dollars to fly to Vietnam and several days for the trip. What was the factory that you worked at making?

Might that be the real reason Iran must be precluded from nukes…?

No.

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Posted: 23 February 2009 08:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Chris Crawford - 23 February 2009 07:51 PM

Western society that its enslavement of the rest of the species, since the Greeks and Romans really and based on its weapons culture, is at last over?

I think that overstates the case a bit. Western peoples only began having a big impact after 1500 CE. Prior to that, lots of other cultures were busy enslaving others.

Granted, I guess the more proper distinction/timeframe is since the ascendancy of guns. And that is coincident with literal African slavery as well.

Isn’t it a “globalization” pipedream whereby Asians will always make $80/month

I can’t imagine any mature policymaker thinking that. After all, if Asians earn only $80/month, they won’t have any money to buy our stuff.

whereas the West will somehow continue to earn thousands

I don’t consider the wealth of the West to be an evil.

You seem rather circumspect about it. There is a devaluation race on amongst western currencies to exploit the fact that Depressions feature deflation, offsetting the obvious inflation. Gas will be $10 a gallon, but that’s a good thing.

(and not too much manual work, please, we’re British..)

The shift from manual to cerebral labor seems quite desirable to me. Do you object to that shift?
No, but I wish you well in your cerebral endeavours (as a society when many high school kids in the West now can’t write their own names in handwriting).

is this de facto slavery based on weapons?

No.

Please explain the difference after you have worked a day in a Vietnamese factory for $3.

It would cost me several thousand dollars to fly to Vietnam and several days for the trip. What was the factory that you worked at making?

Might that be the real reason Iran must be precluded from nukes…?

No.

No relation at all then? So the Pentagon should be eliminated and soon, Nein?

[Color changed to green. Blue is reserved for Mod/Admin official comments as per the rules. dougsmith—Admin]

[ Edited: 24 February 2009 05:35 AM by dougsmith ]
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Posted: 23 February 2009 10:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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I believe that the primary reason that the USA and EU don’t want the Iranians to possess the bomb is the fear that the Iranians might use it.

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Posted: 23 February 2009 10:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Chris Crawford - 23 February 2009 10:04 PM

I believe that the primary reason that the USA and EU don’t want the Iranians to possess the bomb is the fear that the Iranians might use it.

And subsequently be flattened?? Do you know how big Tehran is? Would be a sorry mess.

Methinks the West wants to continue to have the only trumps in this game, and to bully anybody. The Pentagon’s stated policy is to pre-emptively attack anyone threatening their hegemony.

There is a chapter in a speculative fiction work I’m doing wherein the Pentagon tries to threaten poor old Canada, to willfully relinquish its resources for US “national security”.  The Canadian PM is asked by a Pentagon negotiator what his response will be, and it comes as one word.  “Poison”.

I’m surprised the US has survived Osama and Iraq this far with so little consequences, but clearly the US has learned nothing from the Civil War and Vietnam, or any other conflict. History is “social studies” about something else..

No offense, Chris, but Humanism will overwrite nationalism and soon. Militarism is an old joke now.

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Posted: 11 March 2009 11:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Asia is going through a period much like the industrial revolutions periods of more developed nations. Their labor laws are way behind, many multi national companies saw this and have been exploiting it as their mandate is to raise profits. Longer term though given these nations emerging markets are not small example china has a work force that is larger than all the America’s and europe’s work force combined in terms of numbers will lead to a deterioration in labor standards in more developed nations. Ultimately destroying the middle class as they exist today which no amount of military can prevent under these kind of trade agreements , so greed is what will ultimately be their undoing.

As for Iran they are seen as an irrational nation which has openly threatened the annihilation of other nations. Seems clear to me why no one wants them to have nukes.

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Posted: 11 March 2009 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Martinus - 23 February 2009 10:18 PM
Chris Crawford - 23 February 2009 10:04 PM

I believe that the primary reason that the USA and EU don’t want the Iranians to possess the bomb is the fear that the Iranians might use it.

And subsequently be flattened?? Do you know how big Tehran is? Would be a sorry mess.

Methinks the West wants to continue to have the only trumps in this game, and to bully anybody. The Pentagon’s stated policy is to pre-emptively attack anyone threatening their hegemony.

Is it?  How do Russia and China fit in, according to your view?  Are they part of the hegemony or merely irrelevant compared to Iran?  Or has the Pentagon attacked them in secret?

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Posted: 11 March 2009 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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And - 11 March 2009 11:12 AM

Asia is going through a period much like the industrial revolutions periods of more developed nations. Their labor laws are way behind, many multi national companies saw this and have been exploiting it as their mandate is to raise profits.

And all enjoy the benefits of trade, even if there are snags.  The OP points out the low wages offered in Asian nations.  But the buying power of those low wages in those nations is actually much higher than the same wages would be in the United States (for example).  Such jobs are very attractive in developing nations for good reason.  The alternatives are much worse.

Chris is basically right about the wage differential problem.  The idea is not to keep wages low in other countries.  The idea is simply to take advantage of the benefits of trade including trade in labor.  And the implication of a truly global economy is a leveling off of labor costs between nations.  That wouldn’t happen perfectly worldwide (it isn’t even the case in the United States by itself) for a variety of reasons, but free trade should bring wages for the same work toward a sort of midline.

Longer term though given these nations emerging markets are not small example china has a work force that is larger than all the America’s and europe’s work force combined in terms of numbers will lead to a deterioration in labor standards in more developed nations.

Not absent other factors, no; that doesn’t follow.  Worker productivity and business environment are more important than the sheer number of available workers.  Indeed, industrialization may tend to empower Chinese workers to influence an elevation of labor standards in China.

Ultimately destroying the middle class as they exist today which no amount of military can prevent under these kind of trade agreements , so greed is what will ultimately be their undoing.

The new middle class may be an improvement on the one you see being destroyed.  Though IMO that outcome is more likely where the free market is permitted to continue to power innovation.

As for Iran they are seen as an irrational nation which has openly threatened the annihilation of other nations. Seems clear to me why no one wants them to have nukes.

Even if the latter portion of your statement may be subject to dispute, the former part is the key.  In that I’d say you are correct.  The mullahs control Iran and they care more for their revolution and their religion than they do about their nation.  One of Ahmadinejad’s notable statements on Israel dealt with the notion that, from a religious standpoint, giving up Iran to eliminate Israel was a reasonable tradeoff.  That type of thinking mades it crazy to trust MAD as a deterrent.

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Posted: 11 March 2009 12:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Bryan - 11 March 2009 12:24 PM
Martinus - 23 February 2009 10:18 PM
Chris Crawford - 23 February 2009 10:04 PM

I believe that the primary reason that the USA and EU don’t want the Iranians to possess the bomb is the fear that the Iranians might use it.

And subsequently be flattened?? Do you know how big Tehran is? Would be a sorry mess.

Methinks the West wants to continue to have the only trumps in this game, and to bully anybody. The Pentagon’s stated policy is to pre-emptively attack anyone threatening their hegemony.

Is it?  How do Russia and China fit in, according to your view?  Are they part of the hegemony or merely irrelevant compared to Iran?  Or has the Pentagon attacked them in secret?

Russia, China and Iran are all tarbabies for the Pentagon. Without constantly prodding those open wounds, the AMerican people might come to the realization that the US has not been in danger of attack since 1941, if even then, and that the weapons spending has been a complete waste. Russia, China and Iran are all interested only in deterring the US, the same way you buy a gun for protection.

As for the Pentagon’s pre-emptive policy, it’s not a secret. See http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/PET504A.html or do a search on it. It’s pretty disgusting to see the “land of the free” actually planning such things.

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Posted: 11 March 2009 01:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Martinus - 11 March 2009 12:40 PM
Bryan - 11 March 2009 12:24 PM
Martinus - 23 February 2009 10:18 PM
Chris Crawford - 23 February 2009 10:04 PM

I believe that the primary reason that the USA and EU don’t want the Iranians to possess the bomb is the fear that the Iranians might use it.

And subsequently be flattened?? Do you know how big Tehran is? Would be a sorry mess.

Methinks the West wants to continue to have the only trumps in this game, and to bully anybody. The Pentagon’s stated policy is to pre-emptively attack anyone threatening their hegemony.

Is it?  How do Russia and China fit in, according to your view?  Are they part of the hegemony or merely irrelevant compared to Iran?  Or has the Pentagon attacked them in secret?

Russia, China and Iran are all tarbabies for the Pentagon.

OK, so not part of the hegemony as such.

Without constantly prodding those open wounds, the AMerican people might come to the realization that the US has not been in danger of attack since 1941, if even then, and that the weapons spending has been a complete waste.

President Carter was far from aggressive in his support of the Shah of Iran, yet the Iranians took U.S. hostages from our embassy in that country and kept them for, what, 444 days?  Who’s prodding whom?

Russia, China and Iran are all interested only in deterring the US, the same way you buy a gun for protection.

Deterring the U.S. from what?  Our history of invasive expansionism?

Are Haiti, Iraq, Kuwait, Bosnia, France, Philippines, Japan, West Germany, and the like U.S. possessions?  Seriously, what are they protecting against?

As for the Pentagon’s pre-emptive policy, it’s not a secret. See http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/PET504A.html or do a search on it. It’s pretty disgusting to see the “land of the free” actually planning such things.

A fresh policy announced in 2003 hardly seems to fit with a pattern of using Russia, China and Iran as tar babies.  Is that the link you intended to post?

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Posted: 11 March 2009 09:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Bryan , a few questions you cannot answer by reading a text book.

Does china currently manipulate its currency value vs the US dollar?
Does china currently price fix many commodities to deflate prices regardless the loss by internal producers?
Does china government manipulate their own stock market by buying stocks?
Does china currently take their own citizens property for the state at will?
Has china been buying US debt for the past 10-15 years in large amounts to help facilitate the indebtedness of their consumers?
Does china currently enrich corrupt regimes of many African nations in return for the exploitation of their resources under their citizens noses?

Where is your textbook world now?

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Posted: 12 March 2009 06:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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And - 11 March 2009 09:09 PM

Bryan , a few questions you cannot answer by reading a text book.

Does china currently manipulate its currency value vs the US dollar?
Does china currently price fix many commodities to deflate prices regardless the loss by internal producers?
Does china government manipulate their own stock market by buying stocks?
Does china currently take their own citizens property for the state at will?
Has china been buying US debt for the past 10-15 years in large amounts to help facilitate the indebtedness of their consumers?
Does china currently enrich corrupt regimes of many African nations in return for the exploitation of their resources under their citizens noses?

Where is your textbook world now?

You have some good points. The Kommie Kids do know how to play a little hardball, just like the Pentagon.

A situation that won’t be resolved until we get to world govt.

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Posted: 12 March 2009 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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And - 11 March 2009 09:09 PM

Bryan , a few questions you cannot answer by reading a text book.

Does china currently manipulate its currency value vs the US dollar?
Does china currently price fix many commodities to deflate prices regardless the loss by internal producers?
Does china government manipulate their own stock market by buying stocks?
Does china currently take their own citizens property for the state at will?
Has china been buying US debt for the past 10-15 years in large amounts to help facilitate the indebtedness of their consumers?
Does china currently enrich corrupt regimes of many African nations in return for the exploitation of their resources under their citizens noses?

I can’t detect relevance for any of these questions.  If you have a point to make then make some effort to state what it is.

Where is your textbook world now?

Did something put your knickers in a twist?  What’s with the complex question?

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Posted: 12 March 2009 08:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Martinus - 12 March 2009 06:51 AM
And - 11 March 2009 09:09 PM

Bryan , a few questions you cannot answer by reading a text book.

Does china currently manipulate its currency value vs the US dollar?
Does china currently price fix many commodities to deflate prices regardless the loss by internal producers?
Does china government manipulate their own stock market by buying stocks?
Does china currently take their own citizens property for the state at will?
Has china been buying US debt for the past 10-15 years in large amounts to help facilitate the indebtedness of their consumers?
Does china currently enrich corrupt regimes of many African nations in return for the exploitation of their resources under their citizens noses?

Where is your textbook world now?

You have some good points. The Kommie Kids do know how to play a little hardball, just like the Pentagon.

A situation that won’t be resolved until we get to world govt.

A world government like unto that in what country?

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Posted: 12 March 2009 08:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Bryan - 12 March 2009 08:33 AM
And - 11 March 2009 09:09 PM

Bryan , a few questions you cannot answer by reading a text book.

Does china currently manipulate its currency value vs the US dollar?
Does china currently price fix many commodities to deflate prices regardless the loss by internal producers?
Does china government manipulate their own stock market by buying stocks?
Does china currently take their own citizens property for the state at will?
Has china been buying US debt for the past 10-15 years in large amounts to help facilitate the indebtedness of their consumers?
Does china currently enrich corrupt regimes of many African nations in return for the exploitation of their resources under their citizens noses?

I can’t detect relevance for any of these questions.  If you have a point to make then make some effort to state what it is.

Where is your textbook world now?

Did something put your knickers in a twist?  What’s with the complex question?

  You are correct I did get my knickers in a twist a bit and I apologize. What brought me to that point is I have been hearing this free trade/ globalization bullshit for a long time and its a complete lie. There is no such thing as “free trade” in the real world or efficient markets because neither is the goal of the capitalist. If anything their goal is to undermine free trade in the markets to their own advantage much like they do via china which is blatantly protectionist not to say most other aren’t. Unfortunately for these third world countries its like the chickens protecting the fox, they believe they are doing themselves a favor when they are just enriching an exploitive power elite.

  Sadly,even the governments of the world lie and manipulate to suit its own political ends how can we expect the companies of the world not to. Its an imperfect world which has laid waste to just about every economic and social model ever created by theorists simply because it is not a system of rational actors.

  I do agree with Martinus last point about world government. While the Euro has proven one size does not fit all. With proper flexibility and compliance with universal labor/ trade/etc laws between nations and proper transperency we might be able to produce an improved globalized economy.

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