Humanism vs/with Pantheism?
Posted: 16 April 2009 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]
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After Paul’s (PLaclair) earlier thread on why the Humanism movement may be failing, I note a strong similarity on http://www.pantheism.net for his stated sentiments and expressed desire for some elements of religion within Humanism. On pantheism.net they do not seem averse to such a concept, as they do here on CFI.

There is a nice quote there:

Carl Sagan
A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.
Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.
Pale Blue Dot

Again the idea Paul sets forward. Where is the perceived dividing line between Humanism & Pantheism, or is there one? Granted they have a reverence for the Universe, but that is not precluded in Humanism.

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Posted: 16 April 2009 09:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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While Dawkins sees Pantheism as sexed up atheism, I don’t see a thing wrong with it and feel it is very compatible with Humanism.  That might be what Paul is actually looking for and I’m glad you came up with, Martinus.  Not sure why I didn’t think of it.

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Posted: 17 April 2009 02:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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I do like the idea of a pantheistic approach to life, but the website seems to be a little too uncomfortably Berkeley (for me that is!).  smile That being said…I do have a deep reverence for nature and the earth. It is my home, and the only one I shall ever have!  I was conserving water and planting xeriscapes and recycling before it became popular.

[ Edited: 17 April 2009 02:37 AM by asanta ]
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Posted: 17 April 2009 05:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Martinus - 16 April 2009 03:57 PM

After Paul’s (PLaclair) earlier thread on why the Humanism movement may be failing, I note a strong similarity on http://www.pantheism.net for his stated sentiments and expressed desire for some elements of religion within Humanism. On pantheism.net they do not seem averse to such a concept, as they do here on CFI.

There is a nice quote there:

Carl Sagan
A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.
Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.
Pale Blue Dot

Again the idea Paul sets forward. Where is the perceived dividing line between Humanism & Pantheism, or is there one? Granted they have a reverence for the Universe, but that is not precluded in Humanism.

As for Sagans prediction, I would argue, he might agree, that this religion already exists. It is small, but it’s members are composed of mostly secular(but not exclusively), astronomers, biologists, geologists, etc..Maybe they would be considered the priests. The adherents would range loosely from hobbyists, students, and general awe-seekers.

As for Humanism becoming “Religionized”, I think we have to take the root-“human”, and figure out how, collectively, the “human” can be “worshiped(?)” Since the flow of “awe” and “speculation”, and “spiritualism” flows outward from Humanity, I can’t see how collectively, we can reverse that course, and direct the flow inwards, into humanity. It can be done, in small groups, for time periods, but the differentiation of each of us, and our own sense of individualism,I think, prevents us from concentrating too much on any Inward Religionization of Humanity. Humans can effectively, collectively worship an outside reference. Something that is relatively uniform and constant.

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Posted: 17 April 2009 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Thank you for the link. They set out their epistemology quite clearly, I thought, leaving no doubt that their view is entirely naturalistic. Not all people who call themselves pantheists do this, but apparently they do.

Therefore, I see no conflict with secular Humanism. Based on what I read from their title page, this is one of many excellent ways of looking at things. It just illustrates that one can take a naturalistic world view and derive one’s own sense of personal meaning from it; approach night language in a wide variety of ways as Michael Dowd might put it.

I’m all for this. Let a thousand flowers bloom. I would also like to see CFI and other secularist groups reach out to people like this so that we can broaden the base of organizations supporting scientific naturalism.

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 17 April 2009 05:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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VYAZMA - 17 April 2009 05:42 AM

As for Sagans prediction, I would argue, he might agree, that this religion already exists. It is small, but it’s members are composed of mostly secular(but not exclusively), astronomers, biologists, geologists, etc..Maybe they would be considered the priests. The adherents would range loosely from hobbyists, students, and general awe-seekers.

As for Humanism becoming “Religionized”, I think we have to take the root-“human”, and figure out how, collectively, the “human” can be “worshiped(?)” Since the flow of “awe” and “speculation”, and “spiritualism” flows outward from Humanity, I can’t see how collectively, we can reverse that course, and direct the flow inwards, into humanity. It can be done, in small groups, for time periods, but the differentiation of each of us, and our own sense of individualism,I think, prevents us from concentrating too much on any Inward Religionization of Humanity. Humans can effectively, collectively worship an outside reference. Something that is relatively uniform and constant.

It is as simple as getting a critical mass of people to start celebrating a secular world view in a way that brings people in by making them want to be a part of it. That development would practically force wavering and moderate theists to take another look at us. We have to give them somewhere to go. Once that begins to happen, our movements and our numbers will soar.

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 17 April 2009 06:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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PLaClair - 17 April 2009 05:51 AM
VYAZMA - 17 April 2009 05:42 AM

As for Sagans prediction, I would argue, he might agree, that this religion already exists. It is small, but it’s members are composed of mostly secular(but not exclusively), astronomers, biologists, geologists, etc..Maybe they would be considered the priests. The adherents would range loosely from hobbyists, students, and general awe-seekers.

As for Humanism becoming “Religionized”, I think we have to take the root-“human”, and figure out how, collectively, the “human” can be “worshiped(?)” Since the flow of “awe” and “speculation”, and “spiritualism” flows outward from Humanity, I can’t see how collectively, we can reverse that course, and direct the flow inwards, into humanity. It can be done, in small groups, for time periods, but the differentiation of each of us, and our own sense of individualism,I think, prevents us from concentrating too much on any Inward Religionization of Humanity. Humans can effectively, collectively worship an outside reference. Something that is relatively uniform and constant.

It is as simple as getting a critical mass of people to start celebrating a secular world view in a way that brings people in by making them want to be a part of it. That development would practically force wavering and moderate theists to take another look at us. We have to give them somewhere to go. Once that begins to happen, our movements and our numbers will soar.

I can see it. I can see it. It would have to be a very broad,round encompassing, idea. It might have to have some quasi-political connections. I can see it PlaClair…but what might be the results of some Movement may not end up fitting exactly into your vision.
You have to keep that in mind.

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Posted: 17 April 2009 07:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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VYAZMA - 17 April 2009 06:12 AM

I can see it. I can see it. It would have to be a very broad,round encompassing, idea. It might have to have some quasi-political connections. I can see it PlaClair…but what might be the results of some Movement may not end up fitting exactly into your vision.
You have to keep that in mind.

Do you really think so?

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Posted: 17 April 2009 08:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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PLaClair - 17 April 2009 07:29 AM
VYAZMA - 17 April 2009 06:12 AM

I can see it. I can see it. It would have to be a very broad,round encompassing, idea. It might have to have some quasi-political connections. I can see it PlaClair…but what might be the results of some Movement may not end up fitting exactly into your vision.
You have to keep that in mind.

Do you really think so?

Yeah Bro. I mean, look at all the other examples of even the most Humanistic Slanted Movements, or organizations. I like your idea, but in order to create this movement it would have to be able to reach out to an extremely diverse Mass. For something like this to catch fire, it would have to show positive, almost ground shaking, positive change.
The ability of humans to lose interest or focus is extremely sensitive, especially when they are faced with challenges, or the ever present view of Discordance. It may be hard to for someone to feel they belong when they are faced with the everyday,rigermarole, of life and struggling in a Consumer based society.Or in say, So. America, where people mainly live near open ditches of raw sewage, and live with dysentery for most of their lives. And the Bourgeois, of say South America, they are not going to be interested in your/our plans, or movements. They are completely happy with the status-quo, and in fact subsist on it.
These are harsh realities of social-dynamics. This is why, I said that there must be some quasi-political attachment.
For the growth and the Dynamism you are envisioning, changes must take place. YES YES, these changes might be parallel, and co-efficient with the movement itself.( I can’t think of the right “co” word). In otherwords a geometric,social-political expansion of Rationality, or Humanism(as it were). But this expansion would have to blow down some pretty big and sturdy walls.
Along the way, most likely, the movement would almost surely take on a life of its own, and could very well morph away from what you or I envision.(again- I stoically refer to the Who’s “Tommy”, I’m sure there are better literary examples,but not for me)
This subsuming and morphing would take place due to the Massive amount of external and internal pressures.Peace Bro.

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Posted: 17 April 2009 08:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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I offer for your consideration - all religions
(Well heck, all I could fit-in with due respect to the visual aspects - I know I missed a lot of ‘em)
and Atheism’s final destination - it’s at the end. 

Hold your ears, daddy-o, it’s going to be a BUMPpppPy ride.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LubuSAgB5s

Please do not include inflammatory image attachments with your posts, Tor. Thanks. dougsmith—admin

[ Edited: 17 April 2009 08:45 AM by dougsmith ]
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Posted: 17 April 2009 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Addendum: I feel I must clarify the part above about blowing down some pretty strong “Walls”. This is because in any humanist, rational, society I can envision,The New Adherents(we’ll call them) are not going to tolerate-poverty, Nuclear Weapons, any kind of war, famine, NON-egalitarian, or Non-Democratic laws. grin

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Posted: 17 April 2009 08:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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VYAZMA - 17 April 2009 08:11 AM
PLaClair - 17 April 2009 07:29 AM
VYAZMA - 17 April 2009 06:12 AM

I can see it. I can see it. It would have to be a very broad,round encompassing, idea. It might have to have some quasi-political connections. I can see it PlaClair…but what might be the results of some Movement may not end up fitting exactly into your vision.
You have to keep that in mind.

Do you really think so?

Yeah Bro. I mean, look at all the other examples of even the most Humanistic Slanted Movements, or organizations. I like your idea, but in order to create this movement it would have to be able to reach out to an extremely diverse Mass. For something like this to catch fire, it would have to show positive, almost ground shaking, positive change.
The ability of humans to lose interest or focus is extremely sensitive, especially when they are faced with challenges, or the ever present view of Discordance. It may be hard to for someone to feel they belong when they are faced with the everyday,rigermarole, of life and struggling in a Consumer based society.Or in say, So. America, where people mainly live near open ditches of raw sewage, and live with dysentery for most of their lives. And the Bourgeois, of say South America, they are not going to be interested in your/our plans, or movements. They are completely happy with the status-quo, and in fact subsist on it.
These are harsh realities of social-dynamics. This is why, I said that there must be some quasi-political attachment.
For the growth and the Dynamism you are envisioning, changes must take place. YES YES, these changes might be parallel, and co-efficient with the movement itself.( I can’t think of the right “co” word). In otherwords a geometric,social-political expansion of Rationality, or Humanism(as it were). But this expansion would have to blow down some pretty big and sturdy walls.
Along the way, most likely, the movement would almost surely take on a life of its own, and could very well morph away from what you or I envision.(again- I stoically refer to the Who’s “Tommy”, I’m sure there are better literary examples,but not for me)
This subsuming and morphing would take place due to the Massive amount of external and internal pressures.Peace Bro.

One step at a time, Bro.

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