· God created us in order to love Him, and for Him to love us.
you start from a false premise.
Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 (For rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person perhaps someone might possibly dare to die.)7 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous8 by his blood,9 we will be saved through him from God’s wrath.10 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life? 5:11 Not11 only this, but we also rejoice12 in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received this reconciliation.
That comment alone made me wonder. I’m a mother, and I didn’t have a child so that he could love me. I love my child despite whether or not he chooses to love me.
thats exactly how God acts with us. God loves us, despite we do not love him. And he does not require as well our love, in order to love us. He loved us and gave his son, when we still where his enemies. His love is completely selfless. Agape. Only God is capable to have this love, 100%.
· The nature of love requires some sort of choice (to love or not to love); love can not be forced.
· This choice gives us the capability to choose the opposite: hatred By the logic provided in the first statement the nature of every verb is a choice, ie jump or not to jump, debate or not debate, the only point that it makes is that love can be a verb. However, “love can not be forced” is odd coming from someone who believes in god. Is god not all-powerful? Didn’t god create love? Love isn’t a force beyond god, is it?
God is all powerful. But he has choosen to limit himself, so he has given us space to make our choices, without interveen .
The second point is a false one. Hatred is not the opposite of love. I’m afraid a lot of ignorance went into that statement. Think about who you hate in your life. Is there no one in your family that you hate? Hate can be intrinsically linked to love. I have a very big family, and I hate some of them, but it comes from hurt. Hate isn’t the opposite of love; hate is one of many possible consequences of love.
thats just your point of view. i see it differently. hate is very well the oposit of love.
1 John 4:20
If anyone says, I love God, and hates (detests, abominates) his brother [ in Christ], he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, Whom he has not seen.
· Much of the suffering in the world comes from humanity’s misuse of the freedom God gave us.
· When sin entered into the world, through man’s disobedience, it sent creation in a new direction of both moral and natural evil (diseases, earthquakes and accidents).
· God can turn the evil choices we make into positive results. The point that was made regarding free will and the suffering god allows is not satiated by your web link. The heart of the issue is that you believe god is some type of innocent bystander allowing us to make decisions that will lead us toward him or away into pain. I get what you are saying, and that is exactly why I reject it. “Man’s disobedience” is a nice tidy term to explain that, according to your bible, god put Adam and Eve, arguably newborns in the stance of maturity, in a garden and said not to touch one particular tree. If you put any kid, even a teenager, in a room filled with toys and said, “you can have every toy but this one,” you’re an idiot if you blame the kid for playing with the forbidden toy. Not only did god blame Adam and Eve, he allowed his creation, according to your link and bible, to fall toward a “natural evil” because of it. In what way does that make any sense? How can an all-powerful, all-knowing god allow that? And didn’t he see it coming?
You are making a analogy between a kid, and Adam and Eve. But Adam and Eve where fully acountable for theis disobeyance . They were not innocent kids. They had full capability to make their choices. They had direct community with God, before the fall, and so had no reason to doubt about God’s sincerity. But what was Gods intention with humanity ? God did not intend for us to be living in this amoral, fallen world. God intended for us to abide by His commandments, and if we chose to live in His will, we would not be afflicted with evil. The Adam and Eve story demonstrates the type of world we would have lived in if we did not choose sin.
Mankind’s reaction to temptation has been revealed to us in the Adam and Eve story. Adam and Eve failed to obey God. We lie, do take things that aren’t ours, do hate, and do commit various other sins. Sadly, we fall to temptation and give in to these sinful urges just as Adam and Eve disobeyed God. You, i , we are all not better than Adam and Eve were. We have no excuse whatsoever.
God warned of the judgment He would cast onto Adam and Eve if they disobeyed Him; similarly He warns us of the judgment He will cast onto us. We willingly choose to invoke His wrath by our decision to disobey Him.
This story has amazing explanatory power and offers clarity concerning our fallen world. However the story is also significant in that it amplifies the story of Jesus. Even though Adam and Eve rejected God, He did not reject them, but offered redemption. Through Christ’s sacrifice, God again offered redemption to a world who had rejected him. The penalty of sin is death, but that penalty has already been paid. We do not have to face God’s judgment; we can accept the payment for that judgment.
Next lets tackle Herbert Spencer. It surprises me that a self-described evangelical would be paying any heed to the thoughts of Herbert Spencer. His work was an attempt to find a compromise between religion and science.
how do you arrive to this conclusion ? his finding is in accordance with science, isnt ‘it ?
we are now aware (thanks to Einstein) that space and time are one.
thats new to me…..
And what of force and action, in what way are these two separate things? Is the force the actor and the action the result of his/her/its actions?
Or is the action you speak of the choice of the force? Is this as simple as noun and verb? It gets dicey going back through scientific theories and trying to pluck those pieces which bolster your claim. Irregardless, (that’s better) the claim can be updated to spacetime, matter (some would include dark matter), and energy (some would include dark energy). The action is a verb chosen by us to describe the effects of the energy on the matter and is hardly necessary as a category by which to understand the reality of the universe.
so how is to be understood ?
That being said, what does this have to do with why there is a god?
a lot. What would be the alternative ? ” nothing ” would be the origin of all created…. it takes a lot of faith to believe that.
It is as if you are looking at a Rorschach blob and you are trying to get us to see something that is not necessarily there. Maybe try again, or not.
I don’t know what a Rorschach blob is….
could you point me out, where the bible says, that God does blame children for the sins of their ancestors ?
The point people are making to you is how unfair the original sin declaration is from god. We are all damned by Adam and Eve, that seems wrong.
Thats simply wrong. God today is calling you, me, us to believe in Jesus Christ. So its entirely your decision, to obey God today, or not, and based on the decision , you make in this regard, you will be judged.
Another point, what about in Genesis when Noah is drunk and naked in the vineyard? Son A tells son B and son B goes to cover up his naked, drunken father. Noah awakes and condemns son A into serving son B, but then goes so far as to require all of son A’s descendants to serve son B’s descendants. The bible is full of stories like that were any unbiased reader would find fault with the morality of the lessons within it.
Question: “Why did Noah curse Ham / Canaan?”
I do not find you at all sincere with your inquiry here or your statement about not wanting to convert but just testify. What is the point of testifying if not to convert?
We follow Christs mandment to go to all the world, and to tell other people the good news of the gospel, forgiveness of sins, god’s love and offer of eternal life. My focus at a atheist site is to show the comprehensive evindence, that hints to God, through science. What YOU do with the message given, is entirely YOUR business. That means, if you want to react positively to the gospel and my testifying , than YOU must convert from your sins, and your old life, to a new life in Christ. Its not ME to do that for you. That’s why i do not convert anyone, but each one has to convert by its own to Christ, if wish so. What generally is meant , when someone says : ” you try to convert someone ” - than someone wants to FORCE others to its own believe. That’s never my intent.