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i am a born again, evangelical christian
Posted: 03 May 2009 04:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Adonai888 - 03 May 2009 12:28 PM
dougsmith - 03 May 2009 09:34 AM

The basic tenets of Christianity make no sense. Viz., that we are born with “original sin” because of something done by two people many thousands of years ago. Leaving aside the obvious claim that these two people are fictitious, a perfectly good God would neither blame children for the sins of their ancestors, nor cause people to be born “in sin”.

>could you point me out, where the bible says, that God does blame children for the sins of their ancestors ?

It seems to be there by defintion.  Isn’t that exactly what “original sin” is?

Further, assuming that people are born “in sin”, God, being all powerful, could simply wipe away that sin with a single act. He wouldn’t have required the torture and death of himself or his son to do it. The torture is simply gratuitous violence. And once again, gratuitous violence is incompatible with a perfectly good God.

>All sin and unrighness needs punishment.

I thought if people sincerely asked for forgiveness then God would forgive.  But you are saying that God cannot forgive without punishing first.  I’ve never heard that before.

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Posted: 03 May 2009 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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This is utterly pointless. I will be putting Angelo on ignore. He’s not listening and is not sincerely interested in hearing an opposing view.

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 03 May 2009 04:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Herf - 03 May 2009 04:02 PM

>could you point me out, where the bible says, that God does blame children for the sins of their ancestors ?

It seems to be there by defintion.  Isn’t that exactly what “original sin” is?

descendents is one thing. children is another one.

I thought if people sincerely asked for forgiveness then God would forgive.  But you are saying that God cannot forgive without punishing first.  I’ve never heard that before.

there are two ways , sin to be punished.

1. Jesus was punished fot the sins of all humanity. he paid for them.
2. The one , that sinned, and didnt accept Jesus sacrifice, will pay by its own for its commited sins.

Thats way i say : Sin will always be punished. God is just.

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Posted: 03 May 2009 04:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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PLaClair - 03 May 2009 04:10 PM

This is utterly pointless. I will be putting Angelo on ignore. He’s not listening and is not sincerely interested in hearing an opposing view.

I admire your patient and sincere attempt at a real exchange of ideas.  Too bad he seems completely uninterested in doing the same.

FWIW, I enjoyed your excellent posts.  Thanks.

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Posted: 03 May 2009 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Adonai888 - 03 May 2009 04:15 PM

Thats way i say : Sin will always be punished. God is just.

You seemed to have either missed or ignored my earlier post:

According to your belief system, Yahweh created the universe knowing full well that he was condemning billions of people to eternal torment, yet he did so anyway. This is not just, it is premeditated genocide.

[ Edited: 03 May 2009 04:32 PM by DarronS ]
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Posted: 03 May 2009 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Adonai888 - 03 May 2009 04:15 PM
Herf - 03 May 2009 04:02 PM

>could you point me out, where the bible says, that God does blame children for the sins of their ancestors ?

It seems to be there by defintion.  Isn’t that exactly what “original sin” is?

descendents is one thing. children is another one.

He said, “blame children for the sins of their ancestors”.  Note the word “ancestors”.  The children are therefore, descendants.

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Posted: 03 May 2009 04:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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fotobits - 03 May 2009 03:52 PM

Second Commandment doesn’t back your argument? Pick another verse. Never mind the obvious contradiction.

I, too, grew tired of these debates long ago. You cannot hold a rational discussion with someone who insists irrational thinking is acceptable proof of an argument. However, I will leave you something to think about.

According to the Bible, Yahweh knew all things before he created the universe. He knew he would send the majority of the people on this planet to eternal torment, yet he created this planet and those people anyway. That makes your god the worst genocidal murderer in the universe. But I guess it is OK, because the Bible says he loves us.

I am an atheist because I reject the notion such a god exists. I am also an atheist because I have taken time to study the universe as it is, and find reality far more compelling, beautiful and wondrous than any religion.

You could ask the same thing to each mother and father : why do you have children, knowing, that they could make bad choices in their future life, and suffer from these choices ? The parents will love their children, and will give them the best education, and all needed, so that they will have a good future. But it remains a risk : So will the parents choose not to have descendents ? I think the same can be said in regard of God. All what God does, he does motivated of love.

Beside this, we do not know, if God freely , even if he is omniscient, and can know the future, did restrict himself not to forsee the decision of Adam and Eve.

http://www.allaboutgod.com/faq/why-did-god-create-evil.htm

The response to the foregoing is summed up in God’s nature and His desire for mankind. Look at the logic: How could God allow for love without the potential for evil? God could have created robots that do nothing more than forever say, “I love you, I love you, I love you.” But such creatures would be incapable of a real love relationship. Love is a choice, and the Bible says God desires a real love relationship with His creation. Love is not real unless was have the ability to not love. One of God’s attributes is omniscience. God knew that in a world with choice, there would be much evil—to choose not to love is evil by definition. However, there would also be the capacity for real love. Philosopher Alvin Plantinga writes, “An all loving, all powerful, all knowing Being could permit as much evil as He pleased without forfeiting His claim to being all loving, so long as for every evil state of affairs He permits there is an accompanying greater good”. The potential for love out weighs the existence of evil, especially if evil can only exist for a time. Evil is a side effect of love. Suffering and death are a side effect of evil (Romans 5:12). God says in His Bible that this side effect is only for a time. Evil serves the limited purpose of establishing real love relationships between creation and the Creator, and evil will be done away with after that purpose is achieved. “And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides forever” (I John 2:17).

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Posted: 03 May 2009 04:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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PLaClair - 03 May 2009 04:10 PM

This is utterly pointless. I will be putting Angelo on ignore. He’s not listening and is not sincerely interested in hearing an opposing view.

i have heard and answered to your point of view. It seems you would only be satisfied, if i agree with you .....  BTW. could i not say exactly the same to you ? i have given you a comprehensive answer, and actually made the point to each inquiry of yours. It seems actually, that YOU do not want to hear my view, and are therefore not a open ” freethinker ” .

[ Edited: 03 May 2009 04:45 PM by Adonai888 ]
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Posted: 03 May 2009 05:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Beside this, we do not know, if God freely , even if he is omniscient, and can know the future, did restrict himself not to forsee the decision of Adam and Eve.

Aside from being an almost perfectly ridiculous argument, this does not absolve your god from responsibility of his actions.

The god you believe in has the manners and morals of a spoiled child. Read the Old Testament and think about Yahweh’s actions. He ordered the Jewish people to invade foreign countries, kill the men and boys, rape the women and keep them for slaves. He also had the Jewish soldiers spend the night in a whorehouse before invading Jericho, then either banished the mistress of the house to living in poverty or had the Jews stone her to death for being a prostitute. The Biblical accounts are contradictory. God tormented Job to win a bet with Satan. Too bad about killing Job’s wife, children and livestock. I guess they weren’t as important as winning a bet. Daniel sent his best friend on a suicide mission after seeing his friend’s wife naked and lusting for her. God apparently did not care, as the Bible says God called Daniel his friend. Let us not forget the Biblical advice on how to treat slaves. Not a word about freeing them.

What else did this god tell his chosen people to do? Stone to death children who talked back to their parents. Kill homosexuals. Sacrifice lambs in his honor. Told the Wanderings Jews to leave the sick alone in the wilderness to die. Commanded the Jews to kill 42,000 people because someone mispronounced “shibboleth.” The list goes on, if you care to read the Bible you profess to believe.

Some god you have there.

[ Edited: 03 May 2009 05:03 PM by DarronS ]
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Posted: 03 May 2009 05:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Adonai888 - 03 May 2009 04:15 PM

there are two ways , sin to be punished.

1. Jesus was punished fot the sins of all humanity. he paid for them.
2. The one , that sinned, and didnt accept Jesus sacrifice, will pay by its own for its commited sins.

Thats way i say : Sin will always be punished. God is just.

Well that is mighty barbaric and very paganistic, as well as my biggest rant about the hideousness of Xianity.  BTW, have you ever heard of theophagy?  That is precisely what you practice when you have Holy Eucharist.  Personally, I would not want any person being treated so cruelly and barbarous.  In fact, there were many previous god/men treated in such a manner.  Not only that, the whole story went from animism to anthropomorphism.  In other words, vulgar human beings wrote it.  It had nothing to do with a deity.  There is nothing punished by any deity either.  That is just pure superstition.  As for sin, that is another thing human beings made up in order to control the masses, which started long before the Roman Church.  I suggest you research not only your own religion, but many others, including mythology.  It’s all a bunch of tribal thinking and nothing more.  In fact, you have been showing a lot of tribal thinking in this whole thread, but you won’t see it, unless you do your research.

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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 03 May 2009 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Jules - 03 May 2009 01:25 PM

I just began reading through this thread. It started out sounding sincere but has soured a bit. I find it hard to have a productive conversation in situations like this. The answer to every question is “God makes the rules” “I believe/have faith” and tossing in some bible quotes. God-botting just goes around in a circle. Forever. Paul, Doug, and others, I admire your kind patience and thorough replies.

Jules you forgot to add: ....with the usual liberal sprinkling of proselytizing web links! smirk  He is here to ‘save our immortal souls’, not actually read and respond to any of your points.

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Posted: 03 May 2009 06:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Guys and Gals, haven’t you learned anything about these evangelicals yet?  They are dumber than planks and twice as warped.

PLC, I really admire your decency and your intention to help, but you can’t get anywhere with this type of believer whose dishonest intention was not to learn about atheism, but to apply their own illogical nonsense to a never ending religious argument with no substance or logic. 

I suggest we just stop this - when a person professes to believe in a christian god and then calls himself “Adonai”, you know you’ve got a kook who’se arguments are anything but honest.  Let’s end this now.

[ Edited: 03 May 2009 06:54 PM by Fat Man ]
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Posted: 03 May 2009 06:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Ecrasez l’infame! - 03 May 2009 06:48 PM

Guys and Gals, haven’t you learned anything about these evangelicals yet?  They are dumber than planks and twice as warped.

LOL  LOL LOL  LOL

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Posted: 03 May 2009 07:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Ecrasez l’infame! - 03 May 2009 06:48 PM

Guys and Gals, haven’t you learned anything about these evangelicals yet?  They are dumber than planks and twice as warped.

PLC, I really admire your decency and your intention to help, but you can’t get anywhere with this type of believer whose dishonest intention was not to learn about atheism, but to apply their own illogical nonsense to a never ending religious argument with no substance or logic. 

I suggest we just stop this - when a person professes to believe in a christian god and then calls himself “Adonai”, you know you’ve got a kook who’se arguments are anything but honest.  Let’s end this now.

I didn’t know what kind of god-believer we had until I engaged, but it’s clear now. What bothers me most in this particular instance is that it appears to be outright dishonesty - but then again, remembering back some 25 years, it may not be. I’ve never been able to fathom that. All the same, the gentleman is and will remain on ignore.

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 03 May 2009 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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I’m not sure it is outright dishonesty as much as cognitive dissonance. Believers seem able to hold all manner of illogical, contradictory ideas in their heads, and no amount of facts or logic can break down the wall of ignorance.

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