What makes DS9 supportive of religion is the steady, sympathetic portrayal and repeated justification of faith itself. What was lacking was any clear, logical refutation of the core fallacies used for supporting faith – which would justify claims of “successful” treatment.
I agree with you, BurntSynapse. I was never a really big fan of DS9, but I remember one episode where Bajoran parents were pulling their children out of Keiko’s science classes because she was teaching them about evolution and not that they were “created” by “the Prophets”. I sat up and payed attention, because I thought we would finally get a good discussion of the topic. I seem to remember an exchange where Keiko said that it was not her job to teach them about religion. Kira replied to the effect, “Some would say you can’t teach anything without reference to religion.” And this was respectfully taken as the last word on the subject. Ultimately the problem just “went away” and was never refered to again.
I was horrified by what I saw as complete betrayal of humanist virtues Roddenberry advocated and what has been put forward by the less educated and less focused while producing later Treks.
I am a moderator on a Star Trek forum, and I am becoming increasingly disheartened that no one knows or cares about this. Newer members call themselves “Trekkies” because they saw the New Movie, but they seem to judge a movie by how many space battles are in it. Even long-time Trekkies on our forum, if they notice the Humanism at all, go out of their way to ignore it. Not long ago I started a topic on the fourth season Next Gen episode “Devil’s Due”, and one very obvious question that came up was, “Why do you think Picard wouldn’t accept that Ardra was a supernatural being?” Two members of the forum (Christians) immediately said they had always assumed that since the Federation believed in evolution, it was “officially atheist”! I asked them why in the world they had ever assumed that, because I thought it would make a great conversation. Silence. They don’t want to talk about it.
I suppose I need to look for a Star Trek forum made up primarily of Humanists or atheists!
True to the “faith” or not, the collective personal opinion of two very long time fans here is that the most recent movie rates as the best.
Sorry, Gray1, but as an extremely (more than “very”) long time fan of Star Trek (I was distressed after I watched the pilot and it wasn’t immediately picked up for a year), I have to say that the latest “Star Trek” movie, other than stealing the character names, was horrible and completely at odds with the philosophy of Roddenberg and the entire TOS and TNG series. I feel they could be sued for libel for even attaching the name, Star Trek, to that movie.
They haven’t made a decent movie in a long time. As soon as all this Comp. Animation, and effects came along, out went the creativity, and in came the Fluff. And I mean big time Fluff. Producers used to get into their movies, and actually build sets, and props, and film on location etc.. This went hand in hand with normally exceptional directing, acting, and cinematography. Now..?
Forget about it! Garbage.
Film used to be art, or darn close to it…now it is contrived, hackneyed offal.
Vyazma, I have to agree totally with you, unfortunately. My wife and I used to go to a movie once a week, then we cut back to once every two weeks, now we are skipping quite a few weeks because there is nothing but trash out there. The problem is, as you pointed out, that all the computer graphics substitute for meaningful plot or story line, so what we get is kids’ cartoons that make believe they are adult movies. The other problem is most of the present day “comedians” who substitute stupidity for humor.
What really nauseates me is that the films all of the critics rate as the worst are the ones that end up attracting huge crowds of movie-goers.
There’s no doubt about it Occam. If someone wants to say the Medium is changing, then OK. But if someone says that this is still the same industry, the same medium as Motion Pictures(with sound), then I think we can objectively say that the Medium is Crap.
I think in another 3 months they’ll have finished releasing every last remake of every last film ever made, then they’ll start remaking the remakes. They’ll lightly pepper in some Pixar movies.( this ones about a zebra and a starfish searching for home, this ones about a Pterodactyl and a child with a magic soapdish searching for home…etc..)And some situational Romantic Comedies- that have turned into nothing more than Feature Length Motion Picture Versions of “Friends” or “Desperate Housewives”.
BurntSynapse- I simply don’t see the “explicit support of religious faith” in the series. I’ve watched the entire series a couple of times beginning to end and just never got the impression that it was anything but skeptical of religion. I’m willing to concede that Kira’s statement is a huge logical fallacy. However, within the universe of the show the worm hole aliens/prophets are manifesting entities with measurable, discernible qualities and therefore aren’t supernatural. To me, the fact that the Bajorans believe these creatures are supernatural despite the scientific evidence (again within the context of the show) is a subtle but clear indictment of religion by the writers and producers.
I completely agree with you about about terrorism, ect. not needing to be religiously motivated, but my point was that there are episodes of DS9 that deal specifically with religiously motivated terrorism and religious fundamentalism, for example “In the Name of the Prophets”. So I’m not sure why you bring up justifications for terrorism, when that has nothing to do with what I was saying.
Again I simply don’t see what you describe as “the steady, sympathetic portrayal and repeated justification of faith itself”. Yes, there are characters who have faith and supernatural beliefs on the show, but that is not an endorsement of religion. The Vedics and Kai Winn are repeatedly shown as cynical and corrupt, preying on the gullibility and faith of the believers. The Founders genetically modified the Jem’Hadar to worship them as gods, if that isn’t thinly-veiled indictment of religious indoctrination then I’ll eat a tribble. I’m not saying that every episode was an atheist screed, or that religious accommodation was completely absent. I’m saying that overall the series took a dim view religion and in particular religious institutions.
I think every Star Trek series (and other Sci-Fi shows as well) are guilty of the “soul” charge. The “mind switch/body switch” plot is simply a convention of the genre. I’m not saying that I like or agree with the concept of separating the consciousness from the brain, I don’t, I’m just pointing out that DS9 isn’t the only show guilty of this.
As to your last point about my last point, I can only say that I disagree. I don’t see the “overwhelming themes of prophecy, spirits and the idea that faith is a virtue” as being the overwhelming themes at all. Yes, Bajorans believed that those things were supernatural, but the point is there was a natural “scientific” (fictional Star Trek science, obviously) explanation. And it is the natural, not supernatural, explanation that the philosophy of the series is based on. Further, I think the fact that this discussion is going on at all, goes to the real point I was making- and that is that DS9 is successful at fostering debate and critical thinking about religious issues.
What makes DS9 supportive of religion is the steady, sympathetic portrayal and repeated justification of faith itself. What was lacking was any clear, logical refutation of the core fallacies used for supporting faith – which would justify claims of “successful” treatment.
I agree with you, BurntSynapse. I was never a really big fan of DS9, but I remember one episode where Bajoran parents were pulling their children out of Keiko’s science classes because she was teaching them about evolution and not that they were “created” by “the Prophets”. I sat up and payed attention, because I thought we would finally get a good discussion of the topic. I seem to remember an exchange where Keiko said that it was not her job to teach them about religion. Kira replied to the effect, “Some would say you can’t teach anything without reference to religion.” And this was respectfully taken as the last word on the subject. Ultimately the problem just “went away” and was never refered to again.
I’ll have to watch that episode again. I don’t recall any mention of evolution. As I recall Vedic Winn objected to ‘The Prophets” being called “Wormhole Aliens.”
Kaco was putting The Prophets in a scientific perspective rather than a religious one.
The point of the story was that Vedic Winn was deliberately creating an incident where she could have her competition for the Kai assassinated. Religion was the backdrop of the story not the center of the story. It sounds like you want Star Trek to be humanist propaganda. I think DS9 was the best of the Treks. TNG was too goody two shoes for me.
The point of the story was that Vedic Winn was deliberately creating an incident where she could have her competition for the Kai assassinated. Religion was the backdrop of the story not the center of the story.
I agree that religion was being used as an excuse here for a political maneuver. But they definitely were pulling students out of science classes because the teacher wasn’t teaching them religion, which is exactly the reason Creationists on Earth use to oppose evolution. I wasn’t expecting “humanist propaganda”, but did expect the issue to be intelligently addressed. It wasn’t.
I agree with you, BurntSynapse. I was never a really big fan of DS9, but I remember one episode where Bajoran parents were pulling their children out of Keiko’s science classes because she was teaching them about evolution and not that they were “created” by “the Prophets”.
My point was that the conflict was not started about evolution.
There was one mention of evolution but it was after the conflict was already started.
WINN
Let me be the one to make the first
concession. I will no longer request
that you teach anything about the
celestial temple.
A beat. More murmers of surprise… Keiko glances at O’Brien.
WINN
Just don’t teach anything about the
wormhole at all.
KEIKO
(reacts)
Ignore it… ?
WINN
Find other things to teach the
children.
KEIKO
And when we get to theories of
evolution or the creation of the
universe, what then…
WINN
We’ll face those issues when we come
to them.
KEIKO
I’m a teacher. My responsibility is
to expose my students to knowledge.
Not hide it from them. The answer
is no.
The episode is anti-religion in that it is an exposure of the evil done by some people in the name of the religion. Kind of like a documentary on the creation of suicide bombers. I think it was much more sophisticated than any creationist vs evolution polemic.
After that episode Kira was no longer a supporter of Winn. The entire Bajoran religion business was one of the things that made DS9 much more interesting than TNG.
First, this new story takes us back… starting with a fresh slate at a time when our hero Jim Kirk (the ever indominable force we know and love) was but a wreckless youth having many serious character flaws from being far buried under his famous but resultingly absent father’s shadow. In spite of the greatest unlikelyhood, this bad boy free thinker, scorner of authority and bar room brawler gets drawn by force of genetic resonance alone into a command position which saves mankind from certain distruction (although too late for the Vulcans).
Kirk is transformed by his experiences into the man we have loved for so many years and develops the relationships with his ship mates we also love, albiet in a new dimension/alternate universe timeline.
Plus, the young Spock gets laid by a hot Afro chick.
Even the original series’s religious philosophy varied widely. This was well documented in “Star Trek: Atheist Weltanschuuang or Theistic Conspiracy,” one of my college papers, which unfortunately I’m too busy to scan. Though probably not too busy to shred, now that I remember that I still have it.
