The Education Of Children:  How Far Are You Willing To Go For Truth?
Posted: 14 July 2009 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]
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Sex, Drugs, And Death; does that work for you?  In the spririt of understanding - not fear that promotes hiding children from the reality they will ultimately face, will you let, in the spirit of choice, your children to experience our actual world and engage in life changing discussion about it - will you endorse that?  Will you expose your children to the most absurd acts of sexual depravity which we most definitely have film evidence of, for the sake of the healing power of dialogue, and not just pretend they will never occured (Monty Python comes to mind).?  What about drugs?  Will you expose them to, in their education, small amounts of alcohol or cocaine or whatever, letting then have actual ‘Hands On Science’ and then letting them learn to make their own decisions based on real dialogue based on actual experience, and not just hypotheticals?  Will you let your kids see ‘death?’  Not just the death of war but actual murder caught on camera?  The question is, my dear secularists, how far are you willing to go for truth?

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Posted: 14 July 2009 01:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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john76 - 14 July 2009 11:09 AM

Sex, Drugs, And Death; does that work for you?  In the spririt of understanding - not fear that promotes hiding children from the reality they will ultimately face, will you let, in the spirit of choice, your children to experience our actual world and engage in life changing discussion about it - will you endorse that?  Will you expose your children to the most absurd acts of sexual depravity which we most definitely have film evidence of, for the sake of the healing power of dialogue, and not just pretend they will never occured (Monty Python comes to mind).?  What about drugs?  Will you expose them to, in their education, small amounts of alcohol or cocaine or whatever, letting then have actual ‘Hands On Science’ and then letting them learn to make their own decisions based on real dialogue based on actual experience, and not just hypotheticals?  Will you let your kids see ‘death?’  Not just the death of war but actual murder caught on camera?  The question is, my dear secularists, how far are you willing to go for truth?

Just down to the corner mart. That as far as I’m willing to go.

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Posted: 14 July 2009 04:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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There’s a time and a place for everything. Exposing children to such things may do more harm than good. You also have to consider their impact on the children they interact with. I’m no parent, so that’s all I’m going to say.

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Posted: 14 July 2009 06:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Can you say “false dichotomy”?

And what is wrong with Monty Python? Do you find comedians poking holes in absurd, outdated mythologies offensive?

Your entire post is ridiculous. If you have something constructive to debate I’ll stick around. I will not waste my time debating such an offensive diatribe.

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Posted: 14 July 2009 10:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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john76 - 14 July 2009 11:09 AM

Sex, Drugs, And Death; does that work for you?  In the spririt of understanding - not fear that promotes hiding children from the reality they will ultimately face, will you let, in the spirit of choice, your children to experience our actual world and engage in life changing discussion about it - will you endorse that?  Will you expose your children to the most absurd acts of sexual depravity which we most definitely have film evidence of, for the sake of the healing power of dialogue, and not just pretend they will never occured (Monty Python comes to mind).?  What about drugs?  Will you expose them to, in their education, small amounts of alcohol or cocaine or whatever, letting then have actual ‘Hands On Science’ and then letting them learn to make their own decisions based on real dialogue based on actual experience, and not just hypotheticals?  Will you let your kids see ‘death?’  Not just the death of war but actual murder caught on camera?  The question is, my dear secularists, how far are you willing to go for truth?

“Fear that promotes hiding children from the reality they will ultimately face.”

The reality of Sex, Drugs, and Rock n’ Roll… I mean Death is something they will face when they are intellectually capable of thinking critically about these topics and after they have some experience.  Why introduce sex to a child who doesn’t yet produce the hormones?  Why introduce drugs to a child who is impressionable?  And witnessing death at a young age can have a terrible effect on a child who hasn’t yet any reason to contemplate their own mortality.  Truth is obviously a complete necessity, but the individual must have the maturity and the mental capacity to understand and make intelligent decisions.

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Posted: 14 July 2009 11:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Yea, right, I will go in right now and introduce my sons to strychnine to prove to them that it is poisonous and kill them…wait, let me up the value of their insurance first!

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Posted: 15 July 2009 06:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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thoswm - 14 July 2009 10:56 PM
john76 - 14 July 2009 11:09 AM

Sex, Drugs, And Death; does that work for you?  In the spririt of understanding - not fear that promotes hiding children from the reality they will ultimately face, will you let, in the spirit of choice, your children to experience our actual world and engage in life changing discussion about it - will you endorse that?  Will you expose your children to the most absurd acts of sexual depravity which we most definitely have film evidence of, for the sake of the healing power of dialogue, and not just pretend they will never occured (Monty Python comes to mind).?  What about drugs?  Will you expose them to, in their education, small amounts of alcohol or cocaine or whatever, letting then have actual ‘Hands On Science’ and then letting them learn to make their own decisions based on real dialogue based on actual experience, and not just hypotheticals?  Will you let your kids see ‘death?’  Not just the death of war but actual murder caught on camera?  The question is, my dear secularists, how far are you willing to go for truth?

“Fear that promotes hiding children from the reality they will ultimately face.”

The reality of Sex, Drugs, and Rock n’ Roll… I mean Death is something they will face when they are intellectually capable of thinking critically about these topics and after they have some experience.  Why introduce sex to a child who doesn’t yet produce the hormones?  Why introduce drugs to a child who is impressionable?  And witnessing death at a young age can have a terrible effect on a child who hasn’t yet any reason to contemplate their own mortality.  Truth is obviously a complete necessity, but the individual must have the maturity and the mental capacity to understand and make intelligent decisions.

Interesting how we view children, in our culture, as not having mental capacity to understand. We constantly treat kids as “different” from adults- to the extent that they are a different species altogether. They are after all only small-sized versions of us, little, young people.
Throughout the world, and in different cultures and at different histories, children by the thousands, have witnessed death, destruction, sex, and perversity. Wars come to mind. The vast majority of children who witness mass slaughter, burnt bodies lying in the street, mangled bodies, hanging bodies, camps, reprisals, starvation, disease etc…the vast majority of these children have all the innate faculties for processing these inputs and dealing with them. They then go on to lead a life as any other. Case in point, are we saying that adults who witness these same “horrors” come out the other end any better equipped, or effected? No. Plenty of adults now, and in the past, from culture to culture, have shown the adverse effects of exposure.
And how do we as adults deal with these exposures? This answers a REAL GOOD question. On whole as a “herd”, we view the most obscene natures with ambivalence, and indifference.(at most- quiet desperation).
And it is from this herd mentality that children also can easily be fashioned into ambivalence, indifference. It has been shown time and time again.
Obviously it would be wrong to purposefully introduce children, or anyone to these inputs. Why introduce drugs to anyone, let alone children? Adults are impressionable too. Do adults really have anymore mental capacity, or maturity to understand, or make the right decisions? It doesn’t appear so.
Adults are primarily responsible for the introduction of cultures onto children. We have movies and video games that blatantly display graphic violence or sex. There were always Fairy Tales, or Nursery Rhymes that dealt with death. Many cultures have Death celebrations, festivals.
Taking the US as an example. Children are stratified here as second class citizens. They are looked upon as not having “earned” any rights, uneducated, not mature, and uninitiated. These have some purposeful values, however, has our culture manifested mores that may be inhibiting? A drinking age of 21? Total aversion to nudity(to the extent that body parts are looked upon with either shame, or complete shock, The Super-Bowl wardrobe malfunction comes to mind, or laws concerning public nudity).
So how do children grow, or become initiated in a society that has some underlying inhibitive mores? What does a child learn from the reactions of adults, who are outraged and shocked by various natural occurrences? Do children tend to be attracted to the things we try to hide from them? This is a common thought, but I don’t know if it can be proved. I don’t think it is something that simple.
The whole point is Johns thread here puts forth an interesting idea. He frames his scenario in the exact “canned” method that I’m trying to explain here. “Prepare children”, “expose children”, “show children the truths”! It is preposterous to look upon adults, (just older children) as the initiators of children into the “Truthful” world. Actually, to a large extent, they are the initiators, but are we really doing a good job? Can we objectively critique our methods of indoctrination for children, and adjust them to serve a “better end”? I think the answers are NO and No. It appears as if we try to do this, but we just spin our wheels. And no one can “objectively” critique the methods. Because the connections between “better ends”, and “truthful world” are muddied, and constantly being changed by conflicting interests, natural innate tendencies, and Social-political constructs.(actually all these would fit under natural innate tendencies)
I think we all are constantly being initiated, at any age, and we look down upon children as ” new employees, who haven’t learned the ropes yet”. Adults have shown, that we can’t handle these truths any better than kids can.
We as adults are constantly making the violence, and the perversions, and drugs, yet we empower ourselves to “initiate” the kids into a system that they are “too dumb to understand”.

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Posted: 15 July 2009 08:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Children are clearly not just little grownups, as the slightest familiarity with brain development or actual children illustrates. This doesn’t mean they’re “dumb” or “different species,” but it is, as already pointed out, a false dichotomy to say we must either treat the just like adults or as mindless zombies. If someone speaks Chinese fluently but English not at all, it’s not patronizing to speak to them in Chinese instead of English. And it’s not patronizing or a mistake to recognize that children understand and proxcess experiences differently than adults; they fear things they later will not fear, and they don’t fear things that later they realize they should. They accept things as “normal” uncritically under about 7 or so, even if those things are clearly not normal, such as abuse. Of course we should be honest with children and prepare them for living in a world of danger and sadness as well as wonder and joy. That’s what parents are for. But the processes of doing that for real children who we want to help in becoming healthy, strong, independant adults bears little resemblence to the ridiculous suggestions of the OP. Asanta’s comment here about strychnine is dead on!

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Posted: 15 July 2009 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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VYAZMA - 14 July 2009 01:31 PM
john76 - 14 July 2009 11:09 AM

Sex, Drugs, And Death; does that work for you?  In the spririt of understanding - not fear that promotes hiding children from the reality they will ultimately face, will you let, in the spirit of choice, your children to experience our actual world and engage in life changing discussion about it - will you endorse that?  Will you expose your children to the most absurd acts of sexual depravity which we most definitely have film evidence of, for the sake of the healing power of dialogue, and not just pretend they will never occured (Monty Python comes to mind).?  What about drugs?  Will you expose them to, in their education, small amounts of alcohol or cocaine or whatever, letting then have actual ‘Hands On Science’ and then letting them learn to make their own decisions based on real dialogue based on actual experience, and not just hypotheticals?  Will you let your kids see ‘death?’  Not just the death of war but actual murder caught on camera?  The question is, my dear secularists, how far are you willing to go for truth?

Just down to the corner mart. That as far as I’m willing to go.

You’re a better person than I am. I call and have them deliver.

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Posted: 15 July 2009 02:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Drew Barrymore and Robert Downey Jr. are perfect examples of irresponsible (non)parenting. Parents are supposed to be looking out for the best interest of their children.  Children look to their authority figures (adults) to teach how to make their way into society. Introducing them to drugs and sex as if they were a normal part of childhood experience is reprehensible and abusive.

Yes, it is a part of life, but this is analogous to teaching a small child algebra before they learn to recognize numbers.

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Posted: 15 July 2009 04:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Showing children horrible murder scenes, etc? You know what comes to mind? That series Dexter. Little Dexter saw his mother murdered with a chainsaw when he was small. Now he’s a serial killer fixated on blood.

I don’t wrap my child in bubble wrap and make him live in a sanitized home school bible world. I’m not one of the Duggars. I’m realistic. I will have age appropriate discussions on real life issues. Age appropriate is the key.

To suggest giving children drugs or pornography or graphic murder photos is child abuse, and is a stupid thing to suggest. I’m assuming it was only suggested for shock value or to provoke reaction from the forum. No parent in their right mind would do such a thing to their child. Also assuming you do not have children of your own.

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Posted: 15 July 2009 06:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Jules - 15 July 2009 04:54 PM

Showing children horrible murder scenes, etc? You know what comes to mind? That series Dexter. Little Dexter saw his mother murdered with a chainsaw when he was small. Now he’s a serial killer fixated on blood.

I don’t wrap my child in bubble wrap and make him live in a sanitized home school bible world. I’m not one of the Duggars. I’m realistic. I will have age appropriate discussions on real life issues. Age appropriate is the key.

To suggest giving children drugs or pornography or graphic murder photos is child abuse, and is a stupid thing to suggest. I’m assuming it was only suggested for shock value or to provoke reaction from the forum. No parent in their right mind would do such a thing to their child. Also assuming you do not have children of your own.

I’m with you there, A-G-E—A-P-P-R-O-P-R-I-A-T-E!

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Posted: 15 July 2009 06:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Just a thought…..you mentioned that you were theist. Do you think that because we are a-theist we are also a-moral? mad

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Posted: 16 July 2009 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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How far are you willing to go for the Truth?-

Just down to the corner mart. That as far as I’m willing to go.

You’re a better person than I am. I call and have them deliver.

Yes, and they do deliver don’t they Steve. Free of Charge! LOL  LOL  tongue rolleye

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