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ISLAM IS A CLEAR ANTONYM OF SECULARISM…the two terms together are an obvious condradiction…
Posted: 17 July 2009 07:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Advisor,

I have a hard time reading your posts and seeing an open mind. 

Your “logic” regarding the natural world reminds me of a caricature of a “tree” hugging naturalist becoming bored with a science lesson and running outside to twirl around, with her head back, face to the sky and arms outstretched, proclaiming in a loud, boisterous voice “oh, they’re all so wrong; the world is so much deeper, the air is so much crisper, and there is, oh, so much more meaning to all the majesties of the earth then they will ever be able to measure or predict.”  (Sorry about the verbose run-on) smile

The fact that we can never know all there is to know does not justify an omnipotent being.  Because our physical bodies have limitations and can neither withstand the harsh pressure and cold of the very depths of the ocean, nor the expansive frozen vacuum of space, does not mean that allah made everything.  IMO, that is the conclusion of one very lazy philosopher.

Sorry, not buying what you are selling.  rolleyes

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Posted: 17 July 2009 08:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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not a debater, just an adviser… - 16 July 2009 10:27 PM

Look up and think about how everything you see is organized in such a perfect way! The sun, a ball of fire millions of miles away, provides us with the heat and light we depend on every day.

I’m afraid the only thing “perfect” about the above thought is the ignorance.  Do understand that I mean ignorance in the most clinically defined way.  Ignorance is the state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information.(Wikipedia)  Planets are consistently being bombarded with meteors, stars are falling into the gravitational webs of blackholes, planets are being obliterated in the aftermath of a stellar supernova, and so much more is happening all of the time in the serene nightscape of our twinkly twilight.  It is neither organized nor perfect.  It is spontaneous and violent.  And our fire ball sun sends us deadly radiation everyday, from which we are only spared by the grace of our highly evolved atmosphere.  I understand that science, nature and all things space can be complex and vast, but it is not perfectly ordered and engineered. 

Most importantly, I think what you are forgetting is how very different our perception is compared to the actual nature of what is happening in these vast environments.  We are alive, if we are lucky, for 85 years; and maybe only really aware, if we are lucky, for 70 years.  That amount of time is so nothing in regards to stellar life, galactic life, biological evolution, etc.

The fact is, if you want everything in the world to seem perfect and engineered, then that is how you’ll see it.  If you critically examine the effects of many different phenomenon over a long period of time, then you will see it is not ordered but reactionary.

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Posted: 17 July 2009 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Cool. Can you show me where in Quran I can find the cure for AIDS and cancer? Why wait for science to discover it (or as you say to give us “the additional proof”) if the omniscient and omnibenevolent Allah surely included that in his book…

George, you are misquoting me.

i said:

“....if you are relying solely on science to give a reason for existence

I never insinuated science was useless, I only said you shouldn’t rely solely on science to understand the reason for existence. but understand, whether u learn something or not, reality is not dependent on scientific theories, or lack thereof…

Furthermore George, just because you are not told something exists by certain people, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.. keep reading…

George, if every individual issue in the world was specifically written down in detail, how many pages do you guess would be needed to compile all of it…seriously, let’s be logical…..

The Quran is the exact words of Allah, as revealed over 1400 years ago, and as is found today….and the sunnah (prophetic traditions through words and deeds) is also revelation as inspired through Allah, written recordings of which are called hadith.

We have various hadith stating that for every disease, the cure has been sent down…

“There is no disease that Allah has created, except that He also has created its treatment.”(Al-Bukhari)

Allah has never created a disease but created its treatment, that is known by some people and unknown to others, except death. (At-Tabarani)

“Allah has sent down both the disease and the cure, and He has appointed a cure for every disease, so treat yourselves medically, but use nothing unlawful.” (Abu Dawud)

*{And We reveal of the Qur’an that which is a healing and a mercy for believers though it increases the evildoers in naught save ruin.}* (Al-Israa’ 17:82)

There is no particular ayah (verse) in the Quran mentioning AIDS or CANCER in particular. However, repeatedly warnings have been made to any nation indulging in sodomy and sexual perversion from facing a fate similar to that of the people of Lot. For example, we read in the Qur’an (explanation of the meaning):

{And (We sent) Lot when he said to his people: What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you? Most surely you come to males in lust besides females; nay you are an extravagant people. And the answer of his people was no other than that they said: Turn them out of your town, surely they are a people who seek to purify (themselves). So We delivered him and his followers, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind. And We rained upon them a rain; consider then what was the end of the guilty.}* (Al-A`raf 7:80-84)

However, to complete the answer to your question:
Let me share this news article with you, as issued through WorldNetDaily, which is as they state,“A Free Press for a Free People”.

..........“This antibiotic was made into a course of five pills, which is given to the patients, and it is used – believe it or not, my brothers – to treat AIDS patients.  http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80937

 

ok, MRIANA

There is no modern science in the Quran.  It is all tribal mythology in which at the time they tried to explain the unexplainable, mostly with crazy superstitious and acting superior to others.

mriana, what are you talking about. You can’t even begin to explain your own beliefs (or lack thereof), how can you even imagine trying to explain a religion you know nothing about, besides possibly what you catch while skimming through wiki (which is not an authority on Islam by any means)...

Islam is based on facts and reality, not superstitions and mysticism, as is found with the mystic sufis…they also worship the dead, saints, their sheikhs (teachers), they chant and twirl, and a bunch of other stuff… They are mystics, not Muslims.
so, as Allah has said in the Noble Quran (explanation of the meaning):

“Verily, whoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allah,
then Allah has forbidden Paradise to him,
and the Fire will be his abode.
And for the Zalimun (polytheist and wrongdoers) there are no helpers.
{Surah Al-Ma’idaah 5:72}

so, that act of idolatry alone takes them out of Islam…without question… 

Right!  Only if you are Muslim and the right sect of Muslim.  Please spare us the tripe.

mriana, stop trying to repeat what you think Islam is based on what you read in wiki… you are speaking nonsense…
sects are a reference to individuals, not Islam… Judge the religion, not the people that claim to be following it.


Jihad means struggling in the name of Allah Almighty.  Jihad doesn’t always mean a war or battle.  It is a means of spreading Islam and the Truth, or to fight for what is right and condemn what is wrong (such as fighting the bad and helping the oppressed even if they were not Muslims) are considered Jihad.
Jihad is also what I am doing right now, by defending the truth.

we are not permitted to kill women, elderly, children, animals, crops, or any non-combatants (meaning those not on the battle field partaking in the battle)...just as we are not allowed to leave the battlefield after the enemy… Nor can we go to another country to start a fight… So, all of this is wrong, and those responsible for the transgressions should be held responsible, without doubt…

“Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.  (The Noble Quran, 2:190)”

“But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).  (The Noble Quran, 8:61)”

“God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers.  (The Noble Quran, 60:8)”


it is not right to accuse a religion of crimes people made; people that were not following the religion…

So, before you jump to quote something from the news, wiki, or your imagination, try to research it via the proper resources (ask a practicing muslim, or go visit a mosque, or a website teaching authentic materials)
The problems are not derived from religion; certain people are the problem; and practicing the religion properly is the cure.

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Posted: 17 July 2009 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Chicken, I am not selling anything..

The truth is the truth regardless of your opinion…

And, you make no sense in your response:

The fact that we can never know all there is to know does not justify an omnipotent being.  Because our physical bodies have limitations and can neither withstand the harsh pressure and cold of the very depths of the ocean, nor the expansive frozen vacuum of space, does not mean that allah made everything.

That was the entire point, it has been known (since over 1400 years ago) what has recently ‘discovered’ in that environment that you yourself say we humans can never withstand…

So, you acknowledge the human body can not withstand that environment, then how was it that a human over 1400 years ago acquired this clear knowledge?

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Posted: 17 July 2009 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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not a debater, just an adviser… - 17 July 2009 10:59 AM

There is no particular ayah (verse) in the Quran mentioning AIDS or CANCER in particular. However, repeatedly warnings have been made to any nation indulging in sodomy and sexual perversion from facing a fate similar to that of the people of Lot.

Now, be very careful here. It’s one thing to live under the delusion that God creates rain, and another one where you may be making implicit remarks about “sexual perversion” and AIDS. There is a very reasonable possibility that humans contracted AIDS from animals hunted for food, not sex. If you are looking for someone to blame for AIDS and are not a vegetarian, you can easily blame yourself.

A small booklet from Allah reveling the cure for AIDS and cancer (or a simple cold) would have served us better that one Quran filled with babel.

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Posted: 17 July 2009 11:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Chicken, that first part of your response was actually funny…

However, incorrect… I am not anything ending in ‘ist’, nor is my life based on something ending in ‘ism’..

I am Muslim, and my religion is Islam… Alhumdulillah (all praise and thanks are due to Allah)


An added note:
ASANTA, I apologize for assuming you didn’t understand the meaning of what you quoted in your previous post…

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Posted: 17 July 2009 11:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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George, you worship the water vapors, and I’ll worship God our Creator…

furthermore, in the link http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80937 you will find the story of scientist (secular of course) that have found a cure for aids… So again, just because the whitehouse didn’t personally call you to let you know about the cure for aids and cancer, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist…
furthermore, remember magic johnson, and how gravely ill he was (announcement of him having AIDS on November 7, 1991)...the pictures of him in the news were horrific…he didn’t seem to have energy for anything…
read this article originally reported on CNN: http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_magic_johnson.htm

then 10 years later ESPN published an article regarding how healthy johnson was…

Look how healthy he is today..
http://nba-tube.com/magic-johnson-interview-with-kobe-bryant-about-2009-nba-finals/

yet, you deny the existence of a cure for aids specifically, or any other disease…

delusional are those that don’t even attempt to search for the truth; And if they find the truth, they make excuses to not accept it; yet they freely follow their own whims and desires, blindly of course…
And, I am still waiting to the answers to those questions I posed for you all on two occasions now:
what is the purpose of creation, what is the purpose of our life, how should we live our lives??? based on your facts, not opinions…

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Posted: 17 July 2009 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Advisor, I hope you stick around here with us. We can share ideas, and thoughts. When we talk, we must remember right up front that, people are free to believe whatever they want. I try to force my political views on people sometimes. It just creates arguments, and doesn’t lead the discussion anywhere. I still am not good at this…so take it from me, stick around please, but if you spout off too much “faith” or Theism ultimatums, you aren’t going to settle in here.  grin
I’m glad to see you are settling in here, A new viewpoint is fresh. I hope this doesn’t implode.

[ Edited: 17 July 2009 11:58 AM by VYAZMA ]
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Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

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Posted: 17 July 2009 12:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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1.) You may worship god, but I certainly don’t worship water.
2.) In 1991 Magic Johnson announced he had HIV, not AIDS.
3.) They can treat HIV, but they can’t cure it.
4.) What is the purpose of creation? Probably nothing.
5.) What is the purpose of our life? Nothing.
6.) How should we live our lives? I don’t know about “should”, but I can guess how you “will” live your life, depending on who you are. If you are a female hyena, for example, you will experience a lot of suffering during your life, since Allah somehow forgot to give her a birth canal, and she must therefore copulate and give birth through her clitoris. Why do you think Allah did that to the hyena? Was it some kind of a divine joke? Is Allah a sadist? Or did he simply screw up on this one?

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Posted: 17 July 2009 12:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Thank you for the sincere advise VYAZMA… and the welcoming smile.

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Posted: 17 July 2009 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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There is no ‘purpose’ to our creation, we just are, just and the sun just is. The meaning of our life is what we make it, period. Nothing magical in that. The world is NOT perfect. We have asteroids positioned to obliterate us and it has the dinosaurs. There are megavolcanos that will someday erupt and make our existence tenuous. Earthquakes kill regularly as do tornadoes and hurricanes. The sun will one day engulf our planet, before burning out. Yes, science doesn’t have all of the answers and unlike religions, doesn’t pretend to have all the answers, there will never BE an all to the answers, that is part of the fun and wonder.

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Posted: 17 July 2009 12:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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George, what (not who) do you hate? (serious question)

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Posted: 17 July 2009 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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not a debater, just an adviser… - 17 July 2009 12:41 PM

George, what (not who) do you hate? (serious question)

Egg white.

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Posted: 17 July 2009 12:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Adviser,

A serious question: Why didn’t Allah give female hyena a birth canal?

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Posted: 17 July 2009 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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asanta, how can you possibly believe you don’t have a purpose, that you just are, that there is no point to you...
How can you think it’s all about fun and wonder…sounds like a disney world advertisement…

So, since we just are, and there is no purpose, and it’s all about fun and wonder, then is it safe to say that we are all right in whatever we do because since we have no purpose and there is no higher power to answer to then we can just make up our own rules as we go along and there should be no problems, right???
I can’t imagine you will answer yes to that question…

But if you do, then you can say, based on that idea, that all criminals are right in their actions because there is no purpose, no higher authority by whom we will be held accountable, those serial killers are just having fun wondering who they will attack next, and don’t forget all the other filthy criminals that can get a free ride in this imaginary wonder world of fun where anything goes….

And, if you don’t agree that criminals should be able to do whatever they want to whomever whenever….then what are the rules we as humans are obligated to follow, should follow, and may follow… then tell me where you acquired these ideas (knowledge) of what is ok and what is not… and please don’t tell me the rules are based on what asanata feels, believes, thinks….

That would be blind-following, and I don’t believe anyone here truly wants to propagate that idea…

So, I hope you can see how illogical this ideology you are portraying really is…

I am anxiously awaiting your response.

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