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ISLAM IS A CLEAR ANTONYM OF SECULARISM…the two terms together are an obvious condradiction…
Posted: 17 July 2009 01:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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not a debater, just an adviser… - 17 July 2009 10:59 AM

ok, MRIANA

There is no modern science in the Quran.  It is all tribal mythology in which at the time they tried to explain the unexplainable, mostly with crazy superstitious and acting superior to others.

mriana, what are you talking about. You can’t even begin to explain your own beliefs (or lack thereof), how can you even imagine trying to explain a religion you know nothing about, besides possibly what you catch while skimming through wiki (which is not an authority on Islam by any means)...

I don’t explain mine and I don’t wish to explain mine.  No one asked me to explain and I did not put my views out there for the world to view and judge for themselves.

And how do you know that I know nothing about Islam?  I’ve studied religions, including in a university setting.  You have no idea what I know or don’t know.

Islam is based on facts and reality, not superstitions and mysticism, as is found with the mystic sufis…they also worship the dead, saints, their sheikhs (teachers), they chant and twirl, and a bunch of other stuff… They are mystics, not Muslims.

This is where you are mistaken.  There are no more facts in the Quran than there are in the Bible.  In fact, the Quran is a bastardization of Abrahamic religions, right down to Ishmael, whose mother was a slave/servant and not the wife of Abraham.  It came out of slave submissive mentality and to this day, extremists still have that mentality.  Islam means to submit, only in this case, the master is Ah-yah and not Abraham.

mriana, stop trying to repeat what you think Islam is based on what you read in wiki…

Wiki is worthless in the subject of religion and is filled with a lot of misinformation and in the case of Islam, sometimes lies.  I can see from the rest of your post, you are doing nothing by evangelizing (IMO) and are saying things in an effort to convince others to convert.  If they were to convert, and I’m pretty sure no one here is naive enough to do so, they soon find they were scammed.  Not much different from any other religion though.

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Posted: 17 July 2009 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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not a debater, just an adviser… - 17 July 2009 01:23 PM

So, since we just are, and there is no purpose, and it’s all about fun and wonder, then is it safe to say that we are all right in whatever we do because since we have no purpose and there is no higher power to answer to then we can just make up our own rules as we go along and there should be no problems, right???
I can’t imagine you will answer yes to that question…

But if you do, then you can say, based on that idea, that all criminals are right in their actions because there is no purpose, no higher authority by whom we will be held accountable, those serial killers are just having fun wondering who they will attack next, and don’t forget all the other filthy criminals that can get a free ride in this imaginary wonder world of fun where anything goes….

Well, to those who commit crime it may seem that it is right. However, to the rest (or the majority at least) it will feel wrong. As long as the majority feels that certain action is wrong, it will be treated as such. No need for god here.

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Posted: 17 July 2009 01:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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We begin to see the very interesting dynamic here.
On one side the theist. On the other side the atheist. Both believe firmly in their views. Both are convinced of the Truth. Advisor, as much as you feel strongly about your faith, you realize we feel the same way.
But you feel a certain sense of urgency, or importance to warn us, or prevent us from failing. All of your arguments ask us to realize things that we already know. Like initially you felt the need to remind everyone that we’re all going to die. You think we don’t know this?
You try to connect the obvious life situation which everyone experiences, but somehow you are telling us that we aren’t experiencing it.
You automatically assumed that we are self-serving, and only interested in “pleasures, or fun”. I can guarantee you that unless, you are a priest of islam, or a complete zealot, our lives probably have the same ratio of fun and suffering. Our lives are almost identical, you just wish to have faith in allah, or god. This is rooted in tradition, and is acceptable. You are normal too. There’s zillions of muslims.
I don’t begrudge you your faith, none of these folks do. But we get hostile when people try to label us as immoral, or blind. Just like you wouldn’t like it either.
You know amongst some of your believers, maybe yourself, I don’t know, there are times when people have doubts about god, or faith. Lot’s of the faithful do, it’s natural. That’s how we are all the time! At the very least. We doubt the existence of god. And you know perfectly well why we doubt. We don’t have to tell you- you know exactly why we have reasons to doubt brother! Peace!!

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Posted: 17 July 2009 02:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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And how do you know that I know nothing about Islam?  I’ve studied religions, including in a university setting.  You have no idea what I know or don’t know.

LOL… ok, that’s just funny… I like it when people pull out their empty credentials… You learned about a religion from a secular institution… That’s hillarious..

Hey, you know of any Good Islamic Universities where I can get my Masters in Atheism???

This is where you are mistaken.  There are no more facts in the Quran than there are in the Bible.  In fact, the Quran is a bastardization of Abrahamic religions, right down to Ishmael, whose mother was a slave/servant and not the wife of Abraham.  It came out of slave submissive mentality and to this day, extremists still have that mentality.  Islam means to submit, only in this case, the master is Ah-yah and not Abraham.

ok, which bible are we talking about? there are over 100 christian ‘bibles’, and no 2 are the same, and some even include more books than others. But you probably already knew that from your university classes on religion…
Again, bring your proofs, don’t just repeat what you heard, or read on an anti-religious site…

Wiki is worthless in the subject of religion and is filled with a lot of misinformation and in the case of Islam, sometimes lies.  I can see from the rest of your post, you are doing nothing by evangelizing (IMO) and are saying things in an effort to convince others to convert.  If they were to convert, and I’m pretty sure no one here is naive enough to do so, they soon find they were scammed.  Not much different from any other religion though.

Unless you are trying to get me to have a one sided discussion, then we must speak about my beliefs (Islam)... I really don’t want to argue, I simply want to share what I believe (based on proofs) to be the truth… You don’t have to agree just because I say something, but at least open your mind and contemplate, rather than running away from anything that doesn’t agree with your own beliefs… For instance, I read the responses several time, because I don’t want to say something incorrect, nor do I want to refuse to listen to your side.. I am not perfect, but I will try my best.

That is also why I have, on several occasions now, asked for the answer to those questions, as you (meaning everyone here believe the truth to be ..

What is the purpose of creation, what is the purpose of our lives, and how must we, should we, may we live our lives….

I don’t think those are unfair questions…

after all, you all have bombarded me with questions and comments from every angle, and I have been here less than a day… but I don’t mind…

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Posted: 17 July 2009 02:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Right Advisor, hang in there. I think there will be an initial bombardment of questions and barbs, Then things will settle down, and we can get specific about stuff. Talk about movies, food, music.
That was a good comeback on Mriana- the thing about getting A degree of atheism at an Islamic University.
NO OFFENSE MRIANA- I JUST THOUGHT IT WAS CATCHY.

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Posted: 17 July 2009 02:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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not a debater, just an adviser… - 17 July 2009 01:23 PM

asanta, how can you possibly believe you don’t have a purpose, that you just are, that there is no point to you...
How can you think it’s all about fun and wonder…sounds like a disney world advertisement…

So, since we just are, and there is no purpose, and it’s all about fun and wonder, then is it safe to say that we are all right in whatever we do because since we have no purpose and there is no higher power to answer to then we can just make up our own rules as we go along and there should be no problems, right???
I can’t imagine you will answer yes to that question…

But if you do, then you can say, based on that idea, that all criminals are right in their actions because there is no purpose, no higher authority by whom we will be held accountable, those serial killers are just having fun wondering who they will attack next, and don’t forget all the other filthy criminals that can get a free ride in this imaginary wonder world of fun where anything goes….

And, if you don’t agree that criminals should be able to do whatever they want to whomever whenever….then what are the rules we as humans are obligated to follow, should follow, and may follow… then tell me where you acquired these ideas (knowledge) of what is ok and what is not… and please don’t tell me the rules are based on what asanata feels, believes, thinks….

That would be blind-following, and I don’t believe anyone here truly wants to propagate that idea…

So, I hope you can see how illogical this ideology you are portraying really is…

I am anxiously awaiting your response.

No, the purpose of my life is what I make of it. I follow societies rules, because these agreed upon rules allow us to live as the social animals we are.
Yes, to me the world is a wonderful and amazing place. Science is the tool I use to understand why Na+Cl- is sodium, why some plants have radial symmetry programed into their genes, and we and we have lateral symmetry instead. The discovery that the dinosaurs are not entirely dead, because a line evolved into birds, and the recently discovered fact that none of the raptor families are related to each other. The distances to and between the stars is amazing as well as that we can see ‘back in time’ through the Hubble telescope.

I have on the other hand, seen where people do horrendous things to one another in the name of their ‘gods’ and religion. People don’t start wars, steer airplanes into buildings, run inquisitions and crusades in the name of a-theism.

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Posted: 17 July 2009 02:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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VYAZMA - 17 July 2009 02:12 PM

Right Advisor, hang in there. I think there will be an initial bombardment of questions and barbs, Then things will settle down, and we can get specific about stuff. Talk about movies, food, music.
That was a good comeback on Mriana- the thing about getting A degree of atheism at an Islamic University.
NO OFFENSE MRIANA- I JUST THOUGHT IT WAS CATCHY.

Actually, it was not a good come back, because he showed his own ignorance.  Secular universities are just as qualified and Advisor showed his ignorance of Xianity.  There are different translations, but the stories are basically the same.  Abram/Abraham and his wife Sarah, with their slave/servant Hagar and (unintended son from a slave) Ishmael are in every one, KJV, NKJV, RSV, NRSV, NLB, etc etc, and virtually identical, except a few words here and there in the book of Genesis.

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Posted: 17 July 2009 02:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Yeah, I’m just trying to boost the guy. He’s outgunned, and outnumbered. You’re just gonna go round in circles. LOL

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Posted: 17 July 2009 02:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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This is true he is and I agree we’ll be spinning or wheels, just as we do with the Fundamngelicals that come here.  One thing I’d like to see is a Liberal Xian get in on some of these discussion.  Could turn out very interesting and these guys could be even more outnumbered if that were to happen.

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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 17 July 2009 03:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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I have on the other hand, seen where people do horrendous things to one another in the name of their ‘gods’ and religion. People don’t start wars, steer airplanes into buildings, run inquisitions and crusades in the name of a-theism.

right… so you are forgetting that the ex-soviet union was atheist ( just to name one) - and you think they didn’t torture and kill innocent men women children elderly and whatever else their filthy minds felt like doing, and all in the name of destroying religion and making atheism the only belief system whether the individuals like it or not… i guess you forgot, or didn’t know, about these atheist.. or maybe the university in which you learned so much skipped over the ‘brushed under the rug’ topic of atheist violence… They probably forgot to tell you about the atheist in china, and all over europe ( especially the neo-nazis in spain)... yeah, tell me they aren’t violent…

The real face of atheism - either people are ignorant of, its existence or just try to brush it under the rug…

So, don’t try to compare what you have no sound knowledge of…

Just the facts…

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Posted: 17 July 2009 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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but the stories are basically the same.

that’s like saying hot and cold are kinda sorta maybe possibly could be would be if i learned about it at that special university the same…

either it’s the same, or it isn’t… there is no grey area there…

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Posted: 17 July 2009 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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I don’t know what you mean by spinning wheels, but mine are planted firmly on solid ground..

I am answering every question you send my way, though you haven’t done the same for me…

If you don’t have the answer, then don’t be proud, just say you don’t know, then maybe we can research the topic together to find the answer, and then maybe we will both learn something..

However, it seems to me because you don’t have any real answers to back-up your statements of belief or rhetoric, that you just play defense by trying to bash me and/or religion…

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Posted: 17 July 2009 03:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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not a debater, just an adviser… - 17 July 2009 03:22 PM

I have on the other hand, seen where people do horrendous things to one another in the name of their ‘gods’ and religion. People don’t start wars, steer airplanes into buildings, run inquisitions and crusades in the name of a-theism.

right… so you are forgetting that the ex-soviet union was atheist ( just to name one) - and you think they didn’t torture and kill innocent men women children elderly and whatever else their filthy minds felt like doing, and all in the name of destroying religion and making atheism the only belief system whether the individuals like it or not… i guess you forgot, or didn’t know, about these atheist.. or maybe the university in which you learned so much skipped over the ‘brushed under the rug’ topic of atheist violence… They probably forgot to tell you about the atheist in china, and all over europe ( especially the neo-nazis in spain)... yeah, tell me they aren’t violent…

The real face of atheism - either people are ignorant of, its existence or just try to brush it under the rug…

So, don’t try to compare what you have no sound knowledge of…

Just the facts…

Nope, your ‘facts’ are incorrect, you are once again showing your ignorance on this subject, obviously you were not paying attention in history class. Stalin was an atheist, but did not kill in the name of atheism, he killed to gain power. The orthodox church had a lot of power, so he got rid of them, he was into eliminating his enemies and rivals. The Neo-Nazis were CHRISTIAN,were you asleep in class?

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Posted: 17 July 2009 03:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Actually, you haven’t really answered any of my questions.  The first was about evangelism, which you denied.  The second concerning the Shrub, which I didn’t actually see an answer and the third wasn’t actually a question.  You just took it upon yourself to assume whatever it was you wanted.  I have conversed with you, but have not actually asked the questions you would love to answer.  BTW, one can theoretically get an atheist education via theological school.  More often than not, actually studying the subject contributes to atheism.  I met a young fellow who was going to be an Assembly of God (Pentecostal Xian) minister, he went to their renowned theological college and after two years of studying basically the exact same things I learned in a State uni., he was an atheist.  He wasn’t when he started though.  Most of the time, that is how one become an atheist, by studying the subject.

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Posted: 17 July 2009 04:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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asanta…no…and your are obviously asleep in this forum…

what I said was:

(especially the neo-nazis in spain)

neo-nazis in Spain are anything but religious…their agenda is based on the same ethnic cleansing mentality of hitler…not through religion, but through bigotry…

and if you thought i was singling out germany by mentioning ‘europe’, you are wrong…germany is only one of many countries in europe where to some degree, nazis exist and propagate their hatred, whether it is deemed legal or not…

They call for religious genocide, and oppression of those that resist..

that doesn’t mean that all aetheist are out to destroy freedom of religion, though it does appear that way….

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