3 of 5
3
Alternative Medicine Indeed!
Posted: 06 August 2009 06:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4576
Joined  2008-08-14

Doug-

I have always agreed that pharma companies do bad things. However I firmly reject the absurd conclusion that “big pharma sucks as much as alt meds”. That does not follow from anything I have agreed to in this thread.

Your reasoning is identical to the following: “Doctors are convicted of malpractice, so doctors suck as much as murderers.” Or, “All lawyers are evil.” Or, “All unions are corrupt.” Or, “All moslems are terrorists.” Or, “All people from country X are criminals.” Etc.

The products of big pharma save literally tens or hundreds of thousands of lives every year—if we include vaccinations, potentially millions of lives. They are the organizations which will discover the cures for many terrible diseases that still plague us. Your conclusions simply remove them from that context. Alt med does none of those things. It simply takes money from sick people and gives them nothing in return.

Just a question here. If you hate big pharma as much as you claim, I expect you will decline to purchase or use their drugs. Do you decline using their products now? Would you decline to use them if you found yourself in the hospital with a terrible illness? Or is your ethical claim here only a rhetorical ploy?

When I say big pharma is almost as bad as alt meds, I’m applying that under the notion that alot of Alt-meds are not nearly as “bad” as some of you claim. You are interpreting that however as “all alt-meds are bad. Therefore you think it is a ridiculous comparison.
There are tons of alt-meds(quackery, scams etc…) that are bad. There have been quite a few science based meds which are bad.
However, there are whole subsets of alt-meds which I wouldn’t classify as bad. These are the ones whose efficacy are open to a broader interpretation, just like the efficacy of some “real” meds are open to a broader interpretation.
If you ever banged your knee on a table, and then instinctively reached down and massaged your knee, then you are engaging in alt-meds!!! By your own definition!
Are you trying to tell me that through some form of mass-hypnosis, that millions of people are tricked into drinking teas, or using herbal unguents? Things people have done for thousands and thousands of years!
I see in the paper sometimes articles for people looking for home remedies. Stinky-feet! How can I get rid of my husbands smelly feet? Soak ‘em in this, wash your socks in this substance. This is alt-meds! Is it really harmful?
If a child in the mid 1900’s or so couldn’t sleep at night due to coughing, and restless fever, and the mother mixed a teaspoon of brandy in some warm milk, and then the child was able to sleep and rest- is this alt-meds? Is that harmful? How many centuries did alt-meds like this take place? It had to have some efficacy!!
The peoples right to choose how they wish to comfort themselves is their own form of efficacy. It’s as old as religion, it isn’t going away.
Has science created cures and treatments for diseases? Of course! Is it the best way to attack all unknowns-of course. Does it have(usually) the best way to determine what is wrong, and how to fix things? Of course.
Can science be used to show that some alt-meds have a place in society? Yes! yes it can. Can government determine if alt-meds has a place in society? Yes it has.
This black and white division between medicines is ridiculous.
It has already been shown that Insurance Cos. and governments will allow variations of Alt-meds. Whether you want to get all flustered about it because “That isn’t Science!!” is irrelevant! It is science. It’s social science, it’s biological science, it’s behavioral science.
Here we have The USA struggling to find ways to cut costs, and streamline the healthcare system, and ration treatments, and people want to complain about MAINLY innocuous PACIFIERS!!
Of course, to answer your question about whether one will use Traditional Meds( It’s getting tiring even having to put these qualifiers in front of “medicine”) and a doctor. Yes, if I need the treatments of science and doctors and hospitals I will use them. Of course!
And I can assume that you will not choose to use alt-meds should the need arise. This includes rubbing a sore elbow, or massaging your temples to “relieve” a headache!

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 August 2009 07:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15370
Joined  2006-02-14

Vyazma, in order for alt meds to be objectionable they must be sold to someone under the assertion that they are effective at curing or treating a disease. THAT is the only issue I am making here. It is an issue of honesty, of cheating the public.

Nobody is charging you a dime to rub your knee, and stinky feet aren’t ordinarily a medical condition. So that is all irrelevant to the issue. Those aren’t medical treatments, and they aren’t being sold to the public as medical treatments.

(Brandy in warm milk is harmful, OTOH; any alcohol taken right before bedtime has been shown to disrupt sleep. So yes, even on these examples you give, thinking that traditional treatments “have to have some efficacy” is as false as thinking that because people have believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ for 2000 years that therefore he must be the son of God).

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 August 2009 07:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4576
Joined  2008-08-14
dougsmith - 06 August 2009 07:02 AM

Vyazma, in order for alt meds to be objectionable they must be sold to someone under the assertion that they are effective at curing or treating a disease. THAT is the only issue I am making here. It is an issue of honesty, of cheating the public.

Nobody is charging you a dime to rub your knee, and stinky feet aren’t ordinarily a medical condition. So that is all irrelevant to the issue. Those aren’t medical treatments, and they aren’t being sold to the public as medical treatments.

(Brandy in warm milk is harmful, OTOH; any alcohol taken right before bedtime has been shown to disrupt sleep. So yes, even on these examples you give, thinking that traditional treatments “have to have some efficacy” is as false as thinking that because people have believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ for 2000 years that therefore he must be the son of God).

That’s great! And this wonderful pharmalogical industry has been shown to cheat the public too.
Yes there are massage therapists who charge money for their services.
Stinky feet is a medical condition. I think it’s called bromodrosis. I’m sure there are doctors who will offer treatments for it. I’m positive there would be doctors who would offer some form of treatment for it.
Why do you think alcohol was used for thousands of years as tonics, sleep agents and pain relievers? Mysticism? Generally people discard things over time that don’t work. Vicks Nyquil is still sold, and it contains a brew of alcohol and other drugs. It claims to help people sleep. Right on TV! Tens of thousands of people would swear by it. They are being cheated right? They don’t know any better?
Who makes Nyquil? Pretty sure it is a large pharmeceutical company. One that probably manufactures “good” medicines too. How do they draw the line? Profits? If a product sells?

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 August 2009 07:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15370
Joined  2006-02-14
VYAZMA - 06 August 2009 07:14 AM

That’s great! And this wonderful pharmalogical industry has been shown to cheat the public too.

Sometimes, yes. Much of the time, no.

VYAZMA - 06 August 2009 07:14 AM

Yes there are massage therapists who charge money for their services.

What do they charge for? For making you feel better? That’s perfectly proper. And indeed, some medical doctors do prescribe massages for some muscle conditions, as it can be effective at relieving pain. However, if a massage therapist charges you to cure or alleviate a disease for which they cannot do anything, then they are cheating you.

VYAZMA - 06 August 2009 07:14 AM

Stinky feet is a medical condition. I think it’s called bromodrosis. I’m sure there are doctors who will offer treatments for it. I’m positive there would be doctors who would offer some form of treatment for it.

Read what I wrote before you respond, Vyazma. I said “stinky feet are not ordinarily a medical condition”. And just because there is a fancy word for something doesn’t mean it’s a medical condition.

VYAZMA - 06 August 2009 07:14 AM

Why do you think alcohol was used for thousands of years as tonics, sleep agents and pain relievers? Mysticism? Generally people discard things over time that don’t work.

Alcohol is a depressant, so it tends to make you feel sleepy. However, this does not mean it is a worthwhile sleep aid. As I said before, if you take alcohol just before bedtime it will make you sleepier however it will also disrupt your sleep during the night. So alcohol just before bedtime is a bad idea.

VYAZMA - 06 August 2009 07:14 AM

Vicks Nyquil is still sold, and it contains a brew of alcohol and other drugs. It claims to help people sleep. Right on TV! Tens of thousands of people would swear by it. They are being cheated right? They don’t know any better?Who makes Nyquil? Pretty sure it is a large pharmeceutical company. One that probably manufactures “good” medicines too. How do they draw the line? Profits? If a product sells?

Nyquil is a blend of active ingredients which do what they are supposed to do (Acetaminophen, Dextromethorphan, Doxylamine succinate, etc.) and alcohol in the liquid form (there is no alcohol in the pill form).

Given what we know about alcohol’s effect on sleep, I do not believe that it is proper for Vics to sell it combined with alcohol. However, Vics is not owned and marketed by a pharma company. It is owned and marketed by Procter & Gamble, a consumer goods company.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 August 2009 12:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  324
Joined  2009-04-23
dougsmith - 06 August 2009 04:32 AM

I have always agreed that pharma companies do bad things. However I firmly reject the absurd conclusion that “big pharma sucks as much as alt meds”. That does not follow from anything I have agreed to in this thread.

Your reasoning is identical to the following: “Doctors are convicted of malpractice, so doctors suck as much as murderers.” Or, “All lawyers are evil.” Or, “All unions are corrupt.” Or, “All moslems are terrorists.” Or, “All people from country X are criminals.” Etc.

The products of big pharma save literally tens or hundreds of thousands of lives every year—if we include vaccinations, potentially millions of lives. They are the organizations which will discover the cures for many terrible diseases that still plague us. Your conclusions simply remove them from that context. Alt med does none of those things. It simply takes money from sick people and gives them nothing in return.

Just a question here. If you hate big pharma as much as you claim, I expect you will decline to purchase or use their drugs. Do you decline using their products now? Would you decline to use them if you found yourself in the hospital with a terrible illness? Or is your ethical claim here only a rhetorical ploy?

You are UNBELIEVABLE.  And you can’t recognize an olive branch when you see it.  I said EXACTLY that you DO NOT agree with me, and then you go on and on about how you agree.  Therefore, I gave you the out and you decide to attempt to liken my reasoning to “All muslims are terrorists”.  You are UNBELIEVABLE.  If I used any more forceful language, certainly you would exercise your power and delete this comment, so I’m just going to leave it at UNBELIEVABLE.  I could use your same RIDICULOUS analogies against you.  I want to let it be known that I find this assumption-style (which you have just used) completely bogus and a kin to the junk from the Wrong argument in Aristophanes’ Clouds.  Your assertion that big Pharma has done some good and therefore not as bad as Alt meds is identical (really the use of identical here proves that you need to look up identical) to the following:  “Charles Manson isn’t as bad as Lynette Fromme, because she killed the people and he didn’t.”  Or, “Dick Cheney is less evil than Lynndie England, because he didn’t actually participate in any torture or humiliation like she did.”

And your question is equally ridiculous.  Big Pharma is a corrupt organization, as corrupt as any industry out there, just look at oil, but we as consumers still need them.  Do you boycott oil because of the travesties of the oil companies?  I wouldn’t expect you would. 

Your posts have been increasingly petty and misleading, in regards to your analogies.  You should really stop using analogies, you are not very good at them.  wink  I think Vyz was right, you aren’t able to look at this without being defensive.  Too bad, because you may think you agree that big Pharma does bad things and that is bad.  However, your “big pharma saves literally tens or hundreds of…”  blah, blah, blah simply gives them the room to continue to be corrupt, and use and abuse their power.  Way to keep the status quo!

Personally, I agree with Vyz.  Big Pharma sucks just like alt med.  One doesn’t excuse the other, and the fact that some drugs work doesn’t excuse all of the crap they do.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 August 2009 02:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15370
Joined  2006-02-14
Chicken - 06 August 2009 12:47 PM

You are UNBELIEVABLE.  And you can’t recognize an olive branch when you see it.  I said EXACTLY that you DO NOT agree with me, and then you go on and on about how you agree.  Therefore, I gave you the out and you decide to attempt to liken my reasoning to “All muslims are terrorists”.  You are UNBELIEVABLE.  If I used any more forceful language, certainly you would exercise your power and delete this comment, so I’m just going to leave it at UNBELIEVABLE.  I could use your same RIDICULOUS analogies against you.  I want to let it be known that I find this assumption-style (which you have just used) completely bogus and a kin to the junk from the Wrong argument in Aristophanes’ Clouds.  Your assertion that big Pharma has done some good and therefore not as bad as Alt meds is identical (really the use of identical here proves that you need to look up identical) to the following:  “Charles Manson isn’t as bad as Lynette Fromme, because she killed the people and he didn’t.”  Or, “Dick Cheney is less evil than Lynndie England, because he didn’t actually participate in any torture or humiliation like she did.”

And your question is equally ridiculous.  Big Pharma is a corrupt organization, as corrupt as any industry out there, just look at oil, but we as consumers still need them.  Do you boycott oil because of the travesties of the oil companies?  I wouldn’t expect you would. 

Your posts have been increasingly petty and misleading, in regards to your analogies.  You should really stop using analogies, you are not very good at them.  wink  I think Vyz was right, you aren’t able to look at this without being defensive.  Too bad, because you may think you agree that big Pharma does bad things and that is bad.  However, your “big pharma saves literally tens or hundreds of…”  blah, blah, blah simply gives them the room to continue to be corrupt, and use and abuse their power.  Way to keep the status quo!

Personally, I agree with Vyz.  Big Pharma sucks just like alt med.  One doesn’t excuse the other, and the fact that some drugs work doesn’t excuse all of the crap they do.

Sorry, I don’t buy the bogus moral equivalence you’re pushing here. Use all the heated rhetoric you want.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 August 2009 03:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5508
Joined  2006-10-22

While I’ve smiled at most of the posts here, I’ve carefully avoided posting on this thread because it’s much like the views of conservatives vs. libersals or theists vs. nontheists.  Each of you is sure you have the truth and the other views are quite wrong.  And none of you are willing to accept any of what the other side presents as what they consider facts. 

I suggest that you all just agree to disagree and go on to topics that are more likely to lead to resolution.

Now, as is often the fate of the person trying to make peace, I expect that all of you will get pissed at me.  LOL

Occam

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 August 2009 05:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4576
Joined  2008-08-14
Occam - 06 August 2009 03:40 PM

While I’ve smiled at most of the posts here, I’ve carefully avoided posting on this thread because it’s much like the views of conservatives vs. libersals or theists vs. nontheists.  Each of you is sure you have the truth and the other views are quite wrong.  And none of you are willing to accept any of what the other side presents as what they consider facts. 

I suggest that you all just agree to disagree and go on to topics that are more likely to lead to resolution.

Now, as is often the fate of the person trying to make peace, I expect that all of you will get pissed at me.  LOL

Occam

Nah Occam, I’m not pissed. I know I was using hyperbole here. I just want to air out obvious faults with the healthcare system. And the Industries stranglehold on reform attempts. I suspect this statement will garner criticism too. LOL
I will add this edit though: I knew I was going to run into a brick wall. If you examine the thread you will see that my post was immediately stonewalled and blown out of proportion. So I ran with that theme! Screw it!

[ Edited: 06 August 2009 05:15 PM by VYAZMA ]
 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 August 2009 05:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  324
Joined  2009-04-23
dougsmith - 06 August 2009 02:07 PM

Sorry, I don’t buy the bogus moral equivalence you’re pushing here. Use all the heated rhetoric you want.

LOL  LOL  LOL moral equivalence   LOL  LOL  LOL heated rhetoric LOL  LOL  LOL

All from a guy who equated my point of view to “all muslims are terrorists.”

LOL  LOL  LOL  I might just pee my pants!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 August 2009 05:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  324
Joined  2009-04-23
Occam - 06 August 2009 03:40 PM

While I’ve smiled at most of the posts here, I’ve carefully avoided posting on this thread because it’s much like the views of conservatives vs. libersals or theists vs. nontheists.  Each of you is sure you have the truth and the other views are quite wrong.  And none of you are willing to accept any of what the other side presents as what they consider facts. 

I suggest that you all just agree to disagree and go on to topics that are more likely to lead to resolution.

Now, as is often the fate of the person trying to make peace, I expect that all of you will get pissed at me.  LOL

Occam

I’m sorry, but I tried the olive branch.  It doesn’t work in this part of the forum.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 August 2009 06:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5508
Joined  2006-10-22

I have to laugh, because I admire Doug greatly.  He’s quite brilliant, rational and mature, however, even he has a blind spot that operates just as they do in a religious fundamentalist or a Libertarian, and that is in fields related to medicine.  And that’s just fine.  It means that although he may be far above the rest of us, he’s not perfect.  smile

Occam

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 August 2009 06:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4576
Joined  2008-08-14
Occam - 06 August 2009 06:08 PM

I have to laugh, because I admire Doug greatly.  He’s quite brilliant, rational and mature, however, even he has a blind spot that operates just as they do in a religious fundamentalist or a Libertarian, and that is in fields related to medicine.  And that’s just fine.  It means that although he may be far above the rest of us, he’s not perfect.  smile

Occam

I couldn’t agree more. But when it comes to the medical bit, there is a harsh, reflex action. It’s palpable. I would be lying if I didn’t add that my post was also a poke at this Forum Phenomenon. However, that was by far not the main gist. It was just an attempt at a rallying cry against this crap which is going on in Congress.
That, and every day there is a new post here bombing the evils of alt-meds, I thought I would throw in a little counterpoint. And hey! It’s not rhetoric, it’s real! There are fundamental problems in the industry. Fundamental. In research, in funding, in marketing, in dispensing, in information, in legislation…etc
Posts like this one could be put up here with a measure of regularity. I’ve tried it before, and I got gang-banged!

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 August 2009 07:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11

The rest of the world is not perfect, it is unrealistic to believe that ‘big Pharma’ would be any different. But I have yet to resuscitate with ‘alt meds’, even meds that are thousands of years old, I medical professionals don’t medicate blindly (at least good ones don’t) and before medicating, I want to know why I’m giving it, why it will work, how it works and if it is appropriate for what I am trying to treat. All meds have other effects other than what we are prescribing it for, what we judge is risk vs benefits of the medication. Medications that don’t work are quickly discarded, and written up as such. Unlike ‘Alt Meds’ science is self correcting, it does no one any good to try to cure someone with something that doesn’t work or is not the most effective.

If you are saying that they are big money making machines. Yes they are, this is a capitalistic society, and there is nothing in the laws that say they cannot make money, even a lot of money. Do I think the profits are unconscionable? Not really, when I see companies driven out of business because someone thought silicone caused lupus and who knows what else, despite nonpartisan study after study showing otherwise. Do I wish the system were different? Of course. And I hope to retire to Hawaii and live in a mansion on 1000 acres someday too. Somethings are just not realistic. There is just so much change we are going to get. You are on the consumer end of medicine. That is the part that you see and I share your frustrations, I see that side too, and I see a side you DON’T get to see. I’d really like to have a conversation with a doctor or nurse who has worked in that industry to get their view, and of course we cannot forget the insurance companies either.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 August 2009 03:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4521
Joined  2007-08-31
dougsmith - 06 August 2009 04:40 AM

I don’t think that the success of alt med has anything to do with the ethics or lack thereof of conventional medicine. It may have something to do with the lack of personalization of conventional medicine, but that’s a byproduct of keeping costs down. Care must be rationed.

You might be right. One can however ask if just keeping costs low is ethical. This is not an easy topic.

But I heard nothing against my proposition that the root cause of the success of alt med lies in the inhumane aspects of trad med. A successful strategy against alt med should start with the improvement of trad med, including unethical behaving pharmaceutical industry. The increasing popularity of alt med and other kinds of irrational believes lies in the incapability of people to cope with the impressive results of science and technology, because they are used for gain, power and fame, not for improving the fate of humanity. (I am not saying that there is only misuse, but we should concentrate on the misuse to lessen the drive towards irrationality.)

It is again a question of strategy. In my opinion a lot of so called rationalists behave very irrational when it comes to strategy. Just yelling that the others are stupid or not scientific is not a good idea. Real change can only arise from real understanding. Not understanding the success of alt med will not lead to our success.

GdB

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 August 2009 08:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11

A bigger cause of the success of ‘Alt meds’ is lack of understanding science and of scientific methodology by the general public.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
   
3 of 5
3