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The Mayo Clinic Supports CAM
Posted: 24 September 2009 10:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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VYAZMA - 24 September 2009 09:45 AM

You continue to spew forth your opinions, but the worst part which is evident just above, but also throughout this ENTIRE Forum, you continually put words in folks mouths, and try to force words into the other parties debate. You try and steer the argument so that it will go along with your opinions.

Why don’t you have a poll on this, VYAZMA, and see how many people here would actually agree with you? My guess is you are the only one who feels this way.

As far as I can tell there aren’t many places on the internet where you get a chance to debate with an expert, which Brennen as a vet undoubtedly is. Perhaps a little humility would serve you better.

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Posted: 24 September 2009 10:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Speaking of putting words in someone else’s mouth…. Care to share some examples of where I said what you claim I said? I’ve been clear all along that there really is no “alternative” medicine; that’s just a PR term. There is medicine that has a sound basis of evidence for it and woo that doesn’t. There is medicine that is consistent with science and woo that relies on faith. CAM is my label for approaches to medicine that rely on blief instead of evidence. I’ve pointed out that this does bear a strong resemblance to religion, and you haven’t offered any coherent argument to dispute that. The number of people who believe something is not a sign that it is true. You’re big on capital letters and exclamation points, so we all get that you have a strong opinion. What is missing from your response is any evidence that what you claim is true. Screaming “ACTUAL BENEFITS” at me doesn’t mean they exist.

Understand, I do medicine for a lviing. No, that doesn’t mean I’m always right. But it does mean that I spend a great deal of time reading, writing, talking, and thinking about this stuff, and that I have an extensive basis of training and experience in undestanding what is true and what isn’t in medicine. I’m happy to discuss specifics about what sorts of CAM you think work and why, and if you show me some proof I’m not familiar with I’m happy to admit I’m mistaken about that particular point. But you just keep shouting that CAM works and that scientific medicine is no better and just as dangerous, and when I try to point you to some resources that demonstrate why that isn’t true you complain my posts are too long. You charicature what I am saying, refuse to provide any facts to support your argument, and you constantly write in an angry, accusatory, unpleasant and unecessarily personal tone. I do consider that a form of trolling, and while I am clearly not giving you an official warning about it, I stand by the characterization of your remarks. Declare vistory if you like, but I for the life of me can’t see what you’ve proven or accomplished here.

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Posted: 24 September 2009 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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George - 24 September 2009 10:17 AM
VYAZMA - 24 September 2009 09:45 AM

You continue to spew forth your opinions, but the worst part which is evident just above, but also throughout this ENTIRE Forum, you continually put words in folks mouths, and try to force words into the other parties debate. You try and steer the argument so that it will go along with your opinions.

Why don’t you have a poll on this, VYAZMA, and see how many people here would actually agree with you? My guess is you are the only one who feels this way.

As far as I can tell there aren’t many places on the internet where you get a chance to debate with an expert, which Brennen as a vet undoubtedly is. Perhaps a little humility would serve you better.

George are you aware of what the Debate is about? Probably not. The debate is whether there is room for CAM in the Medical Industry.
Are you also willing to say there is no room for CAM in the medical industry? That CAM has no place in the medical industry?
Go ahead George…take your time.
While you’re at why don’t you sing the virtues of McKenz’s expertise a little louder. McKenz has already explained how he is more knowledgeable about medicine than some of the Physicians at the Leading Hospitals in the US.
But first get on the right page. Are you saying George that CAM has no place in Medicine. Take awhile to answer, by then McKenzie will have revised all of his statements, and redefined the debate.
Go back, and re-read the countless pages of debate.

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Posted: 24 September 2009 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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He doesn’t have to be a charlatan, just mistaken. And the fact that these programs are turning up in all sorts of well-respected places doesn’t mean the stuff they promote is safe or works, just that people want it and believe in it. People want and believe in religion, and that’s “integrated” into all sorts of instituition, but that doesn’t make it true either.

There McKenz. I’m stopping here. I don’t need to mine the entire Forum for your rhetoric. It’s all in the back pages.
So we must now conclude that there is indeed a place for CAM in todays Medicine. No?

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Posted: 24 September 2009 10:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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George - 24 September 2009 10:17 AM
VYAZMA - 24 September 2009 09:45 AM

You continue to spew forth your opinions, but the worst part which is evident just above, but also throughout this ENTIRE Forum, you continually put words in folks mouths, and try to force words into the other parties debate. You try and steer the argument so that it will go along with your opinions.

Why don’t you have a poll on this, VYAZMA, and see how many people here would actually agree with you? My guess is you are the only one who feels this way.

As far as I can tell there aren’t many places on the internet where you get a chance to debate with an expert, which Brennen as a vet undoubtedly is. Perhaps a little humility would serve you better.

You like Polls do ya? Polls are a pretty accurate way of getting to the truth? Let me know. There’s lots of Polls out there Georgie!
All kinds of “truths” to be found through Polls…....

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Posted: 24 September 2009 10:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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VYAZMA - 24 September 2009 10:27 AM

Are you also willing to say there is no room for CAM in the medical industry?

According to the experts, including Brennen, the answer at the present seems to be no (that’s a “no” for CAM doesn’t belong in medicine, or a “yes” for I am willing to say so). I agree with them, since as far as I can tell, their explanation seems logical to me.

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Posted: 24 September 2009 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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You’re big on capital letters and exclamation points, so we all get that you have a strong opinion. What is missing from your response is any evidence that what you claim is true. Screaming “ACTUAL BENEFITS” at me doesn’t mean they exist.

I am not screaming. Perhaps my internet chat etiquette is not up to snuff. Seeing as how this is the written word, my capitalization is there for emphasis only. I suppose I should use the Italics more if you feel I’m screaming.

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Posted: 24 September 2009 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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VYAZMA - 24 September 2009 10:59 AM

I am not screaming. Perhaps my internet chat etiquette is not up to snuff. Seeing as how this is the written word, my capitalization is there for emphasis only. I suppose I should use the Italics more if you feel I’m screaming.

Using all caps on chat forums has been considered screaming, and thus rude, for the better part of two decades now. Please use italics for emphasis. You did not attribute the quote, but as requested therein please also provide some supporting evidence for your claims. I have followed your discussion with mckenzie, and do not remember you posting anything substantiating your assertions. Maybe you did a few months ago, but I am not gooing to take a few hours out of my life to go back and research all those threads. In this thread you have offered nothing but red herrings, unsupported assertions, and straw man arguments.

[ Edited: 24 September 2009 01:11 PM by DarronS ]
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Posted: 24 September 2009 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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No one is falling for your “yes or no question” gambit here. The issue is complicated, and your attempt to characterize my argument as more simplistic and extreme that it really is isn’t going to work.

There’s no place in medicine for therapies that are inconsistent with basic scientific laws (like homeopathy, Ch’i, Innate Itelligence interrupted by Vertebral Subluxations, and so on). There is also no place for things that have been scientifically proven to be ineffective or unsafe. Much CAM falls under these categories. There is certainly room for research into ideas that make some sense and might someday be shown to work (lots of herbs, probiotics, etc), BUT it is unethical to sell these things to sick people with promises of miracles when no one knows for sure what the risks or benefits might be and without the protections of informed consent and clinical trial protocols.

I define CAM as therapies that have not been demonstrated to be safe and effective but that are believed in and promoted anyway, and there is no room in medicine for these. That doesn’t mean every new idea is CAM or is useless. But ask yourself, why is it that these therapies are not acepted by the scientific establishment in the first place? Why are the relegated to special, separate division within medical institutions and call “complementary” or “integrative” (both of which are more PR terms since “alternative” failed to catch on because it was too obvious about having an underlying philosophy and rationale inconsistent with science)?

If you buy the CAM propoganda, you’ll answer that they can’t be patented or made profitable so corporate medicine is trying to suppress them (wrong on many levels, as I’ve explained in the David and Goliath Myth article). Or you’ll say that most doctors and scientists are threatened by new ideas and see innovation as a challenge to their power and authority (wrong since science is all about innovation, and I don’t know any doctors who wouldn’t love to have the kinds of miracle cures CAM promoters often promise). The real reason is that these methods haven’t proven themselves by the standards and methods of scientific medicine, and the last few centuries have shown us clearly that these standards work better than what went before - anecdote, reliance on authority, and intuition. People believe passionately in them without, or even contrary to the evidence. If I’ve pointed out that this is a “faith” much like religious faith, well that seems an appropriate comparison to me.

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Posted: 24 September 2009 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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fotobits - 24 September 2009 11:15 AM
VYAZMA - 24 September 2009 10:59 AM

I am not screaming. Perhaps my internet chat etiquette is not up to snuff. Seeing as how this is the written word, my capitalization is there for emphasis only. I suppose I should use the Italics more if you feel I’m screaming.

Using all caps on chat forums has been considered screaming, and thus rude, for the better part of two decades now. Please use italics for emphasis. You did not attribute the quote, but as requested therein please also provide some supporting evidence for your claims. I have followed your discussion with mckenzie, and do not remember you posting anything substantiating your assertions. Maybe you did a few months ago, but I am not gooing to take a few hours out of my life to go back and research all those threads. In this thread you have offered nothing but red herrings, unsupported assertions, and straw man arguments.

Sorry Fotobits, I haven’t been sitting in front of the internet for 20 years. This is my 3rd year of computing.
If your not willing to go back into the debate, then you have no real interest in the debate, therefore you should keep out of it.
And quit Brown nosing, for christ sakes!!

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Posted: 24 September 2009 01:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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McKenz, the debate is over. You can stop now. Everythings on the record. I haven’t read anything past the first sentences of your last couple of posts. Your just flailing about now. Backfilling, and revising.
I’m assuming that you now accept that CAM has a place in Todays Medicine. Any replies over 1-2 inches in thickness will not be read.

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Posted: 24 September 2009 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Apology accepted on the all caps faux pax. We all were new at this at one time.

I am in the debate. Instead of offering anything of substance you merely repeat unsupported assertions, throw out irrelevant arguments, and ignore easily found case studies proving CAM is bogus. Then you have the temerity to accuse Brennen of being stubborn. My long post above was a sarcastic way of showing the weaknesses and fallacies in your arguments.

And I am not a brown noser. I’m sure several of my former managers would gladly attest to that.

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Posted: 24 September 2009 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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VYAZMA - 24 September 2009 01:44 PM

McKenz, the debate is over. You can stop now. Everythings on the record. I haven’t read anything past the first sentences of your last couple of posts. Your just flailing about now. Backfilling, and revising.
I’m assuming that you now accept that CAM has a place in Todays Medicine. Any replies over 1-2 inches in thickness will not be read.

Quite the debating technique there. Put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and chant “Lalalalalalalalalalal!”

I’m done with this thread. You cannot reach someone with a closed mind.

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Posted: 24 September 2009 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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I haven’t read anything past the first sentences of your last couple of posts

Of course not. Blind faith ignores evidence.

I’m assuming that you now accept that CAM has a place in Todays Medicine

Nope. You’re just making this up.

Short enough?

[ Edited: 24 September 2009 06:48 PM by mckenzievmd ]
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Posted: 24 September 2009 01:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Vyazma, trolling is not allowed under the rules. Gratuitous insults and continuing to argue while refusing to read or respond to reasoned arguments against your position are the signs of trolling.

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