2 of 4
2
What About The Sumerians?
Posted: 01 October 2009 02:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  19
Joined  2009-09-30
JRM5001 - 01 October 2009 02:42 PM

K Pre,

I think Sumer played a very important role in human development maybe a bigger role than Doug does, maybe not—that would make for an interesting debate. 

The Sumerians may or may not have influenced the Egyptians in some way, but Egyptian culture arose on it’s own.  The Sumerians weren’t around “far before” the Egyptians.  There is also evidence of proto-cultures in the Middle East that pre-date Sumeria.  I believe there is evidence of a foundation for city walls at Jericho that could be as old as 8,000 years ago (2,000 yrs before Sumeria).  I think Sumeria is believed to have come into existence @3,500 BC.  Egypt began its rise sometime @3,000 BC, but no one knows the exact dates.  Sumerian culture and mythology were quite distinct from those of Egypt.  Reading one quack book on “alternative history” does not make you an expert on ancient culture. 

I think Sumer impacted the Babylonians, Assyrians, Hittites and indirectly societies like the Phoenicians.  There is good evidence of the first codification of laws, of basic economic systems and credit, and other organizational developments that impacts subsequent societies.  However, I know of no reliable text that connects the Sumerians with the Old Testament.  Indeed, the Sumerians were polytheistic.  Flood stories exist in many cultures including some in the New World who had no connection to cultures in the Middle East.  That proves nothing. 

I suspect you will be waiting a long time for that apology.

The apology is not for the debate, It’s for going opposite of what this site is for. Ridicule before research is what brought about the dark ages. From my research I’ve come across no person’s educated in the field who disagrees with the FACT that the sumerians were the 1st. AGAIN THE FACT that the british empire’s flag is a Sumerian symbol and many aspects in our daily lives are linked directly to the sumerians says quite a bit about the importance of their culture. We can agree to disagree, however I choose to accept the fact that the first written document in human histories account of who we are were we came from and its impressive knowledge of math, science and astronomy are true.

Unless evolution explains the ability of man to conquer math, science and astronomy shortly after it was able to walk, after it took millions of years for it to walk, I’ll go with what explains that major hole best. Evolution has nothing to explain it.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 03:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15435
Joined  2006-02-14
JRM5001 - 01 October 2009 02:42 PM

I think Sumer played a very important role in human development maybe a bigger role than Doug does, maybe not—that would make for an interesting debate. 

I don’t mean to deny that Sumer played an important historical role. I’m just denying the more outlandish claims made by the OP in this thread.

K_Pre - 01 October 2009 02:43 PM

Read the book, do your own research, I can easily post links and citations that favor my points. The audio version of the book will take you only an hour or so. In doing so you will see that many of the texts in the old testament were copied from the Sumerian text, just as many of the text in the new testament are copied from the book of the dead. They weren’t one of the 1st’s they were THE 1st.

If my other outlandish claims include that fact that the real missing link is the evolution of math and that evolution has no proof of evolving math in humans I’d love to hear your counter argument. Keep in mind I’m not disagreeing with evolution. However mankind in it’s intelligent from was not and is not from the process of natural evolution, we are from the process of creation as the Sumerians described. Math is taught not learned.

What book?

Which OT texts were copied from which sumerian texts? This is quite a weaker claim than your earlier claim that they wrote the entire OT.

And what does this have to do with the (nonexistent) 12th planet?

I have no idea what point you’re trying to make with mathematics and evolution. Perhaps you can elaborate.

(Re. Sumer and math, just as a matter of historical accuracy, the number zero was discovered independently in India and Mexico. It did not come from Sumer. And most early mathematics is traced back to Babylon, not Sumer; although some early math may have originated in Sumer, most of the development appears to have been in Babylon ... not to mention Greece and Islam).

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
K_Pre - 01 October 2009 02:45 PM
asanta - 01 October 2009 02:43 PM

I was right! He IS a troll….I’ll bet he isn’t even African American!! grin

I wouldn’t lie about that. I’m originally from Sierra Leone west africa. Is there something wrong with my points or I’m I suppose to go with the flow and only talk about evolution?

Hahaha, we don’t ALWAYS talk about evolution, if you look through the threads you can see that! We learn from each other, only time will tell what YOU are willing to learn. I’d like to know WHERE you acquired these beliefs. They are not taught in any accredited US college or university.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 03:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  19
Joined  2009-09-30
asanta - 01 October 2009 03:09 PM
K_Pre - 01 October 2009 02:45 PM
asanta - 01 October 2009 02:43 PM

I was right! He IS a troll….I’ll bet he isn’t even African American!! grin

I wouldn’t lie about that. I’m originally from Sierra Leone west africa. Is there something wrong with my points or I’m I suppose to go with the flow and only talk about evolution?

Hahaha, we don’t ALWAYS talk about evolution, if you look through the threads you can see that! We learn from each other, only time will tell what YOU are willing to learn. I’d like to know WHERE you acquired these beliefs. They are not taught in any accredited US college or university.

Curiosity, reading anything outside the norm and asking myself does this make sense. If it doesn’t make sense to me I move on to something else.
Sorry Doug I not going to continue any debates with you. You answer no questions and prefer I repeat myself. You have all the classic symptoms of a third person arguer so I’ll save myself the hassle. It’s very easy to work google, simply type in Sumerians and you’ll get more texts and citations than you can handle. You can do the same on youtube as well.

Have a safe journey in your quest for answers.

[ Edited: 01 October 2009 03:25 PM by K_Pre ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 03:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  19
Joined  2009-09-30
K_Pre - 01 October 2009 03:22 PM
asanta - 01 October 2009 03:09 PM
K_Pre - 01 October 2009 02:45 PM
asanta - 01 October 2009 02:43 PM

I was right! He IS a troll….I’ll bet he isn’t even African American!! grin

I wouldn’t lie about that. I’m originally from Sierra Leone west africa. Is there something wrong with my points or I’m I suppose to go with the flow and only talk about evolution?

Hahaha, we don’t ALWAYS talk about evolution, if you look through the threads you can see that! We learn from each other, only time will tell what YOU are willing to learn. I’d like to know WHERE you acquired these beliefs. They are not taught in any accredited US college or university.

Curiosity, reading anything outside the norm and asking myself does this make sense. If it doesn’t make sense to me I move on to something else.
Sorry Doug I not going to continue any debates with you. You answer no questions and prefer I repeat myself. You have all the classic symptoms of a third person arguer so I’ll save myself the hassle. It’s very easy to work google, simply type in Sumerians and you’ll get more texts and citations than you can handle. You can do the same on youtube as well.

Have a safe journey in your quest for answers.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 03:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4865
Joined  2007-10-05
K_Pre - 01 October 2009 03:22 PM

It’s very easy to work google, simply type in Sumerians and you’ll get more texts and citations than you can handle. You can do the same on youtube as well.

Ah, research via Google and YouTube, those shining paradigms of scholarly rigor.  LOL

You’re the one making claims K_Pre, so it is up to you to back those claims. Google and YouTube may be good enough for you, but if you want to convince anyone other than yourself you will need credible sources.

 Signature 

You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 04:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  19
Joined  2009-09-30
fotobits - 01 October 2009 03:48 PM
K_Pre - 01 October 2009 03:22 PM

It’s very easy to work google, simply type in Sumerians and you’ll get more texts and citations than you can handle. You can do the same on youtube as well.

Ah, research via Google and YouTube, those shining paradigms of scholarly rigor.  LOL

You’re the one making claims K_Pre, so it is up to you to back those claims. Google and YouTube may be good enough for you, but if you want to convince anyone other than yourself you will need credible sources.

Are you people serious? Google the search engine that can find you documents from any era any library any where in the world is not credible? I’m I in OZ all of a sudden you can’t be real. Youtube is the video version of google. I’m done. I’m at a loss for words.

This is really not better than dealing with religious nuts who you can’t intelligently debate with either. I’ll live you with your “we grew from fish to man in 4 million years and then learned math, science and astronomy in 4,000 years” claims. That answers all your questions.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  324
Joined  2009-04-23
K_Pre - 01 October 2009 01:22 PM

Evolution is accurate however it doesn’t apply for human intelligence. It may sound hooey but the Sumerians have yet to be wrong about anything. From their descriptions of uranus and neptune to the accurate drawings of our solar system, their account of the great flood, regions or creation, the start of modern agriculture the list goes on. I found it to be the most sensible explanation of humans sudden grasp of mathematics, science and astronomy all of which evolution cannot explain or prove.

Couple of comments.  First, JRM5001, love the Pre K slip.  It is K_Pre not Pre K, though Pre K is more intellectually appropriate.

Second, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!  I love this reasoning.  Evolution doesn’t account for human intelligence.  That is great!  Perhaps you have yet to google enough to be completely versed on evolution.  I would suggest reading a book or two.  Here are some good sources of info for you, if you are truly willing to learn:  Origin of Species by Darwin ( a must read); The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond; and (my favorite) Human Evolution and Prehistory by William Haviland.
Human intelligence is explained by evolution to a large extent.  When the Austrolapithecus Robustus (I believe they’ve changed that designation to be Paranthropus or robust australopiths) evolved from the Austrolapithecus afarensis and africanus, slight changes in physiology such as a thicker skull with larger cranial capacity was noted.  Most scientists consider this change as environmental and dietary, such as introduction of ants and termites into the diet.  As we continued our evolution to Homo habilis and Homo erectus, our diet included more meat and our cranial capacity increased. “The cranial capacity of the largely plant-eating Australopithecus ranged from 310 to 530 cubic centimeters; that of the most primitive known meat eater, Homo habilis from East Africa, ranged from 580 to 752 ccs; whereas Homo erectus, who eventually hunted as well as scavenged for meat, possessed a cranial capacity of 775 to 1225 ccs.” (pg. 178,  Human Evolution and Prehistory by William Haviland).  Diet was not the only factor in our changing brain.  Tool use and language development aided in brain development and natural selection, of course, resulted in those traits and changes being the dominant feature. 

Third, there is no evidence of a “great flood” anywhere.  I have Smithsonian Earth and there is nothing in the geologic record of a worldwide flood.  If you have proof, by all means share!

Fourth, there is no consensus on why the move from hunter-gatherer to agriculture.  A move which resulted in worse health and lots of death and disease.  I’d love it if you can explain that as well.

Fifth, I already told you, just because you don’t understand everything, doesn’t mean that it is too complicated or inexplicable.  You mentioned in your intro thread that you are in your early 30’s, so am I.  We’ve got a lotta learnin’ left, honey!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 04:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1995
Joined  2008-09-18

K_Pre, I think you have overestimated the amount of material contained by Google. Of the few subjects in which I have some expertise, it is impossible to find anything, anywhere to match the material I have in my library. Indeed, I would hazard the guess that, of all the material in my library, the Internet contains less than half. The fact is, if you want to learn, you still have to read books.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  324
Joined  2009-04-23
K_Pre - 01 October 2009 02:57 PM

Unless evolution explains the ability of man to conquer math, science and astronomy shortly after it was able to walk, after it took millions of years for it to walk, I’ll go with what explains that major hole best. Evolution has nothing to explain it.

You don’t know as much as you think.  Man did not learn to walk and shortly there after develop math, science and astronomy.  Bipedalism was an evolution of the Australopithecus, we are talking nearly 3.5 million years ago.  I think you need to go back to school and read some books.  Google is great for quick reference, but only if you have a base of knowledge.  There is a lot of crap on the net, and it is very pervasive.  You need to be able to discern fact from fiction, and I’m not sure you can do that yet.

If you think that just because the Sumerians have the first written record then everything they say must be right, then you are no more clever or discerning than the theists who blindly believe the Bible was written by god.  You can’t just decide that math is too complicated and Sumerians must have been visited by special alien life to have evolved into such masterminds.  Math is inherent in nature.  You should look into math as well as evolution.  I also mentioned to you, not that you are paying attention, Neil deGrasse Tyson explained how a stick, string and stone can tell you a lot about astronomy.  You just think it is complicated, because your knowledge of how Man evolved is so elementary.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 04:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  324
Joined  2009-04-23
K_Pre - 01 October 2009 04:00 PM

This is really not better than dealing with religious nuts who you can’t intelligently debate with either. I’ll live you with your “we grew from fish to man in 4 million years and then learned math, science and astronomy in 4,000 years” claims. That answers all your questions.

Grew from fish to man in 4 million years??? What are you talking about?? I’m sorry, but your level of knowledge is far too low in this arena for you to be talking to me about “intelligent debate”.  Give me a break!  Get a book and turn off your computer! rolleyes

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 04:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  19
Joined  2009-09-30
Chicken - 01 October 2009 04:06 PM
K_Pre - 01 October 2009 01:22 PM

Evolution is accurate however it doesn’t apply for human intelligence. It may sound hooey but the Sumerians have yet to be wrong about anything. From their descriptions of uranus and neptune to the accurate drawings of our solar system, their account of the great flood, regions or creation, the start of modern agriculture the list goes on. I found it to be the most sensible explanation of humans sudden grasp of mathematics, science and astronomy all of which evolution cannot explain or prove.

Couple of comments.  First, JRM5001, love the Pre K slip.  It is K_Pre not Pre K, though Pre K is more intellectually appropriate.

Second, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!  I love this reasoning.  Evolution doesn’t account for human intelligence.  That is great!  Perhaps you have yet to google enough to be completely versed on evolution.  I would suggest reading a book or two.  Here are some good sources of info for you, if you are truly willing to learn:  Origin of Species by Darwin ( a must read); The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond; and (my favorite) Human Evolution and Prehistory by William Haviland.
Human intelligence is explained by evolution to a large extent.  When the Austrolapithecus Robustus (I believe they’ve changed that designation to be Paranthropus or robust australopiths) evolved from the Austrolapithecus afarensis and africanus, slight changes in physiology such as a thicker skull with larger cranial capacity was noted.  Most scientists consider this change as environmental and dietary, such as introduction of ants and termites into the diet.  As we continued our evolution to Homo habilis and Homo erectus, our diet included more meat and our cranial capacity increased. “The cranial capacity of the largely plant-eating Australopithecus ranged from 310 to 530 cubic centimeters; that of the most primitive known meat eater, Homo habilis from East Africa, ranged from 580 to 752 ccs; whereas Homo erectus, who eventually hunted as well as scavenged for meat, possessed a cranial capacity of 775 to 1225 ccs.” (pg. 178,  Human Evolution and Prehistory by William Haviland).  Diet was not the only factor in our changing brain.  Tool use and language development aided in brain development and natural selection, of course, resulted in those traits and changes being the dominant feature. 

Third, there is no evidence of a “great flood” anywhere.  I have Smithsonian Earth and there is nothing in the geologic record of a worldwide flood.  If you have proof, by all means share!

Fourth, there is no consensus on why the move from hunter-gatherer to agriculture.  A move which resulted in worse health and lots of death and disease.  I’d love it if you can explain that as well.

Fifth, I already told you, just because you don’t understand everything, doesn’t mean that it is too complicated or inexplicable.  You mentioned in your intro thread that you are in your early 30’s, so am I.  We’ve got a lotta learnin’ left, honey!

If I was here to name call and so on I’d participate in that exchange. I’d hope the CENTER FOR INQUIRY was just that and not the Church Of Evolution.

Your entire run down of the concept of evolution doesn’t not explain anything. No where in there did you state or point out any MATHEMATICAL progression. NOT ONE. The missing link for you may be an ape humanoid. The missing link that makes absolute sense to me is progression from mud houses to pyramids and there is NONE. FACT: The first findings of modern agriculture are on mountain peaks, why would man start agriculture on a mountain top? because there was a flood down below. So I guess meteors can kill dinosaurs but a flood NOOO that’s too way out there. That could never happen. The polar ice caps have NEVER melted in earth’s history. In fact they aren’t even melting right now. Ignore the fact that the ocean level is raising that’s just hoeey.

I understand you are like the christians, the muslims and the jews you believe wholely in something and you don’t want to let go even when the OBVIOUS is presented to you. The obvious here is MATH, not when we started eating plants or when we started eating meat. This is what separate us from them, MATH. It’s when we got the concept of math so advanced that we can map the stars without a telescope AND within thousands of years of walking up right.

It’s right in front of your face, clear as day. MATH IS NOT LEARNED AS A PROGRESS OF EVOLUTION. MATH IS TAUGHT. If we stopped teaching each other math right now, we would go right back into the dark ages. Evolution doesn’t kick in from what we already know and we just get smarter from here on out. NO we get dumber. This is a FACT. So if math is taught then that means someone TAUGHT US MATH. PERIOD.

[ Edited: 01 October 2009 04:44 PM by K_Pre ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1995
Joined  2008-09-18

K_Pre, I think you have crossed the border into cloud-cuckoo land, but I’ll at least point out a few items:

Mathematics developed in a clear and sensible manner. There are many histories of mathematics and they make it clear how the concepts developed in different civilizations. There was no magical jump.

The development path from mud houses to stone pyramids is in fact well documented by archaeologists. You might want to look at the archaeology of Jericho in particular, as it pre-dates the Sumerians and it has stone architecture.

Agriculture did not start on a mountain top. There were actually a number of independent starts, but the one that is most significant occurred in the northern portion of the Fertile Crescent where people started cultivating grasses in addition to their hunter-gathering processes. There’s a lot of information on the transition, if you wish to read it.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 04:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  19
Joined  2009-09-30
Chris Crawford - 01 October 2009 04:42 PM

K_Pre, I think you have crossed the border into cloud-cuckoo land, but I’ll at least point out a few items:

Mathematics developed in a clear and sensible manner. There are many histories of mathematics and they make it clear how the concepts developed in different civilizations. There was no magical jump.

The development path from mud houses to stone pyramids is in fact well documented by archaeologists. You might want to look at the archaeology of Jericho in particular, as it pre-dates the Sumerians and it has stone architecture.

Agriculture did not start on a mountain top. There were actually a number of independent starts, but the one that is most significant occurred in the northern portion of the Fertile Crescent where people started cultivating grasses in addition to their hunter-gathering processes. There’s a lot of information on the transition, if you wish to read it.

Please show me one evidence in evolution of mathematical progression from pre-historic to modern humans. I’d love to see this. I could have been shut up and all your claims of my idiocy would have been proven a long time ago with one proof. I’ve done all the research I can and I have yet to find one. Therefore I concluded there are none. So can someone provide me with a book I can read, a google reference a youtube reference anything that we’ll show me the indefinite proof of the mathematical missing link at any period of evolution from pre-historic to modern humans. I’ll really love to see this.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 October 2009 05:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4865
Joined  2007-10-05

K_Pre, Evolution is a biological science, it has nothing to do with mathematics. Your incessant prattling about subjects in which you are completely ignorant has grown tiresome. You have provided no references or evidence to back your ridiculous claims, yet demand we provide evidence for widely known history. The development of mathematics is well known, and ongoing.

It’s when we got the concept of math so advanced that we can map the stars without a telescope AND within thousands of years of walking up right.

This is utter ignorance. You are now on my ignore list.

 Signature 

You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 4
2