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What About The Sumerians?
Posted: 01 October 2009 05:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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K_Pre - 01 October 2009 04:53 PM

Please show me one evidence in evolution of mathematical progression from pre-historic to modern humans. I’d love to see this.

It is called “pre-history” for a reason.

But, if you want to research with a video, try these two from Carl Sagan.  It does not cover as old a period of history as you’d probably like, but it points out the clear advancement that earlier humans were making in math and science. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEnie6eqKQw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BZb0lKQvNs&feature=related

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Posted: 01 October 2009 05:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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K_Pre - 01 October 2009 04:27 PM

It’s when we got the concept of math so advanced that we can map the stars without a telescope AND within thousands of years of walking up right.

Plain hogwash. Within thousands of years? Try millions. Australopithecines, from whom we had evolved, were already bipedal 3 million years ago. There is also some indication that Orrorin tugenensis (possibly related to us) might have walked up right some 6 million years ago.

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Posted: 01 October 2009 05:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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fotobits - 01 October 2009 05:08 PM

K_Pre, Evolution is a biological science, it has nothing to do with mathematics. Your incessant prattling about subjects in which you are completely ignorant has grown tiresome. You have provided no references or evidence to back your ridiculous claims, yet demand we provide evidence for widely known history. The development of mathematics is well known, and ongoing.

It’s when we got the concept of math so advanced that we can map the stars without a telescope AND within thousands of years of walking up right.

This is utter ignorance. You are now on my ignore list.

I guess the brain is not biology. Just say you have no answer. At least do that, I mean come on. You aren’t suppose to be exactly like the religions people you claim you aren’t. Clearly this is a religion to you guys and not an interest of inquiry. I really thought I would have some thoughtful debates here but it’s been nothing but name calling and question dodging.

This is a 100% fair question that tears a major hole into the theory of evolution and brings into the conversation the sumerian details on how we were created. If you can’t answer this question or at least provide a logical answer then it just means you got some more work to do on your theory. It doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

I am very dissapointed, I thought I was chatting with superior minds but it’s the same zombie following that refuses to THINK for themselves and ask tough questions. I’m very dissapointed.

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Posted: 01 October 2009 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Kaizen - 01 October 2009 01:53 PM

This is an awesome thread.

Who needs Dan Brown anyway.

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Posted: 01 October 2009 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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K_Pre - 01 October 2009 04:27 PM

If I was here to name call and so on I’d participate in that exchange. I’d hope the CENTER FOR INQUIRY was just that and not the Church Of Evolution.

First off, you have been name calling ever since people started disagreeing with your idea.  Second, the church of evolution, C’MON, you can think of a better name than that!

Your entire run down of the concept of evolution doesn’t not explain anything. No where in there did you state or point out any MATHEMATICAL progression. NOT ONE. The missing link for you may be an ape humanoid. The missing link that makes absolute sense to me is progression from mud houses to pyramids and there is NONE. FACT: The first findings of modern agriculture are on mountain peaks, why would man start agriculture on a mountain top? because there was a flood down below. So I guess meteors can kill dinosaurs but a flood NOOO that’s too way out there. That could never happen. The polar ice caps have NEVER melted in earth’s history. In fact they aren’t even melting right now. Ignore the fact that the ocean level is raising that’s just hoeey.

My “entire run down” was in response to your equivocation that “evolution does not account for human intelligence”.  I successfully demonstrated my point, but you have moved the bar, as is typical for the dogmatic.  NOW, you would like evolution to specifically explain math.  I don’t think anyone has asked so much of evolution.  However, your requirement betrays your ignorance in regards to math and what you claim to know about Sumerians.  I suggest you visit this site ( http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/HistTopics/History_overview.html ).  The Babylonians began our journey in math, but they were not the final word.  Math itself evolved as cultures evolved.  The Greeks really changed the face of math and formed what we know as math today.  Again, math itself is an evolution.  Babylonians, Greeks, Indians, Islamic countries, many civilizations sculpted the math we use.  It didn’t just poof, appear in the hands of the Sumerians. 

Again, you shift your focus on your next sentence with “the missing link that makes absolute sense to me is progression from mud houses to pyramids”.  I think you should research that as well.  The materials used to build a Mesopotamian house were the same as those used today: mud brick, mud plaster and wooden doors, which were all naturally available around the city,[32] although wood could not be naturally made very well during the particular time period described. Most houses had a square center room with other rooms attached to it, but a great variation in the size and materials used to build the houses suggest they were built by the inhabitants themselves [4]. The smallest rooms may not have coincided with the poorest people; in fact it could be that the poorest people built houses out of perishable materials such as reeds on the outside of the city, but there is very little direct evidence for this.[33] (Wikipedia) 

There is no evidence pyramids were ever used as houses.  I don’t even know why you said that.  Ziggurats were built by the Sumerians, Babylonians, Elamites and Assyrians as monuments to local religions. The earliest examples of the ziggurat were raised platforms that date from the Ubaid period[34] during the fourth millennium BC, and the latest date from the 6th century BC. (Wikipedia)

Know lets talk about your FACT about agriculture.  They pinpoint the Karacadag Mountains, in southeast Turkey at the upper fringes of the Fertile Crescent, as the site where einkorn wheat was first domesticated from a wild species around 11,000 years ago. ( http://www.spelt.com/origins.html ) Agriculture began well before your precious Sumerian civilization.  Sumerians may have perfected agriculture, but they didn’t start it.  Secondly, the fact that the agricultural sites were in the mountains could be explained by any number of reasons, mostly involving why the tribe was there in the first place, i.e. mountain animal populations, defense, environmental stability (like wind control).  Irregardless, it certainly wasn’t because of a world wide flood.  Here is my proof:  The Bering land bridge was exposed between 18,000 and 10.200 years ago by lowered sea levels. (pg. 41 Smithsonian Earth).  The ice age had ended and the icebergs were retreating during this time period. 

You are simply delusional if you are going to equate my assertion that there is no proof of a worldwide flood with denying global warming.  Certainly, there has been flooding in certain areas, NOT THE WHOLE WORLD.  Certainly, there has been higher sea levels and isolation due to migrating ice sheets and temperature changes, NOT DURING THE TIME OF AGRICULTURAL BIRTH.

You don’t have the chops to hang in this fight.  I’ve read, and studied, and continue to do so.  I’m always going to be farther ahead if you don’t start doing some actual research and stop spewing your 12th planet nonsense. 

I understand you are like the christians, the muslims and the jews you believe wholely in something and you don’t want to let go even when the OBVIOUS is presented to you. The obvious here is MATH, not when we started eating plants or when we started eating meat. This is what separate us from them, MATH. It’s when we got the concept of math so advanced that we can map the stars without a telescope AND within thousands of years of walking up right.

Of the two of us, I’m the only one presenting evidence.  You are making wild claims with nothing to back it up.  Try and refute me with actual proof.  You can’t!  I think it is unfortunate that you can read this thread and not see that you are the one who is “wholely in something and you don’t want to let go even when the OBVIOUS is presented to you.”  It ain’t just me.  I’ve got tons of scholars backing me up.  What do you have?  I’m still waiting!

It’s right in front of your face, clear as day. MATH IS NOT LEARNED AS A PROGRESS OF EVOLUTION. MATH IS TAUGHT. If we stopped teaching each other math right now, we would go right back into the dark ages. Evolution does kick in from what we already know and we just get smarter from here on out. NO we get dumber. This is a FACT. So if math is taught then that means someone TAUGHT US MATH. PERIOD.

Try again!  Math is observation.  Learn about the math in nature.  Your inability to understand and fathom an intellect that can observe and apply observations just shows your limitation, not the limitation of people in the past. 

FOR THE LAST TIME, I understand that math, astronomy, evolution are all difficult concepts for you, but that doesn’t make them crazy alien inventions.  Read some more and come back when you’ve learned! cool smirk

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Posted: 01 October 2009 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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K_Pre - 01 October 2009 04:53 PM

Please show me one evidence in evolution of mathematical progression from pre-historic to modern humans. I’d love to see this. I could have been shut up and all your claims of my idiocy would have been proven a long time ago with one proof. I’ve done all the research I can and I have yet to find one. Therefore I concluded there are none. So can someone provide me with a book I can read, a google reference a youtube reference anything that we’ll show me the indefinite proof of the mathematical missing link at any period of evolution from pre-historic to modern humans. I’ll really love to see this.

I’ve given you evidence!  Heck, it wasn’t even hard.  I just typed in history of Math in google and it came right up.  Here it is again: http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/HistTopics/History_overview.html

Listen, there is not mathematical progression from prehistory to modern human.  HOWEVER, there is evolution in math from Babylonian to modern day math.  You have no clue.  It is truly sad!

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Posted: 01 October 2009 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Chicken - 01 October 2009 05:38 PM
K_Pre - 01 October 2009 04:53 PM

Please show me one evidence in evolution of mathematical progression from pre-historic to modern humans. I’d love to see this. I could have been shut up and all your claims of my idiocy would have been proven a long time ago with one proof. I’ve done all the research I can and I have yet to find one. Therefore I concluded there are none. So can someone provide me with a book I can read, a google reference a youtube reference anything that we’ll show me the indefinite proof of the mathematical missing link at any period of evolution from pre-historic to modern humans. I’ll really love to see this.

I’ve given you evidence!  Heck, it wasn’t even hard.  I just typed in history of Math in google and it came right up.  Here it is again: http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/HistTopics/History_overview.html

Listen, there is not mathematical progression from prehistory to modern human.  HOWEVER, there is evolution in math from Babylonian to modern day math.  You have no clue.  It is truly sad!

Nice try guys but none of you hit the ball.

You can show stone age tools, but you can’t show stone age math is the point I’m getting at. At some point in the evolution process, you should see progressions in mathematics. All the links you provided start with the greeks (when even the greeks say they got it from babylon formerly Sumer (home of the sumerians) thousands of years earlier). So are you all telling me that during the evolution process at no point did ancient man add 2+2 somewhere? Even the wheel was created by the sumerians, so in 4 million years of evolution man never had the smarts to make the round thing.

The fact is there IS nothing that shows humans evolving along with math. NOTHING. You have stone age tools then bam all of a sudden you have pyramids. NOTHING IN BETWEEN.

Chicken you have no idea what you are talking about. No where did I say pyramids were used as houses, I think you are either a bit too literal for my patience or you just purposeful interpret text to your satisfaction. No where in any of my posts did I call anyone a name so I’ll pass on responding to your posts henceforth.

I appreciate the thoughtful dialog of those who have been willing to debate with a reasonable conclusion in mind. If I’m able to patch the evolution hole, I will happily accept that intelligent man evolved from monkeys. However there has been nothing supporting that fact only deliberate miss information in my opinion. It makes ZERO sense to me that we went from hunting with stone shaped spears to building mathematically precise pyramids literally overnight with nothing in between. The Sumerians explanation makes perfect sense of how that happened. Sorry guys, if it makes sense to you great, keep doing what you do. But it makes absolutely no sense to me.

[ Edited: 01 October 2009 06:01 PM by K_Pre ]
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Posted: 01 October 2009 07:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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K_Pre - 01 October 2009 05:58 PM

You have stone age tools then bam all of a sudden you have pyramids. NOTHING IN BETWEEN.

This, like virtually everything else you’ve written, is false. Pyramids have a long history of development, from small stone tombs (mastabas) to stepped pyramids like the Pyramid of Djoser to the mature form we know from Giza.

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Posted: 01 October 2009 08:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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This is a “false concern troll” a rare and interesting breed. Same creationist nonsense packaged under the guise of someone who is looking to actually learn. They pretend to be someone interested in science and then spew religious fake science, trying to plant seeds of doubt or trip you up with their bible class crap. The liars are rare - usually creationists just go directly to quoting the bible.

PZ Myers recently had a feature on a bible college requiring students - for class credits - to sneak onto atheist forums and try to pretend to be an atheist that has doubts on evolution and offer intelligent design as an alternative.

Funny, I thought it wasn’t very “Christian” to lie - or is it OK to lie when trying to convert heathens?

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Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it’s a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.    - Lex Luthor

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Posted: 01 October 2009 09:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Jules - 01 October 2009 08:38 PM

This is a “false concern troll” a rare and interesting breed. Same creationist nonsense packaged under the guise of someone who is looking to actually learn. They pretend to be someone interested in science and then spew religious fake science, trying to plant seeds of doubt or trip you up with their bible class crap. The liars are rare - usually creationists just go directly to quoting the bible.

PZ Myers recently had a feature on a bible college requiring students - for class credits - to sneak onto atheist forums and try to pretend to be an atheist that has doubts on evolution and offer intelligent design as an alternative.

Funny, I thought it wasn’t very “Christian” to lie - or is it OK to lie when trying to convert heathens?

WOW you people are morons. I really really thought I was going to have some great discussions but you are all idiots. I’m far from christian bro. On facebook I rip anyone that puts up a biblical quote. I assail on american blacks who praise god and go to a church with a white jesus hanging on the wall.

I’m not christian, I’m not jewish, I’m not muslim and I’m also not stupid. Common sense tells me our method of reproduction alone is by design. Male/Female is by design. That means there is a designer. It’s not the religious version. But only idiots would accept that there is no ghod at all. It doesn’t mean that this ghod has to be worshiped and praised and obeyed etc. However there is a TRUE GHOD.

I’m done with you nutjobs, you are just as bad as the religious nuts. Please change this sites name to Church Of Evolution. This site has nothing to do about inquiry and every thing to do about promoting evolution.

[ Edited: 01 October 2009 09:08 PM by K_Pre ]
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Posted: 01 October 2009 09:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Jules - 01 October 2009 08:38 PM

This is a “false concern troll” a rare and interesting breed. Same creationist nonsense packaged under the guise of someone who is looking to actually learn. They pretend to be someone interested in science and then spew religious fake science, trying to plant seeds of doubt or trip you up with their bible class crap. The liars are rare - usually creationists just go directly to quoting the bible.

PZ Myers recently had a feature on a bible college requiring students - for class credits - to sneak onto atheist forums and try to pretend to be an atheist that has doubts on evolution and offer intelligent design as an alternative.

Funny, I thought it wasn’t very “Christian” to lie - or is it OK to lie when trying to convert heathens?

See! I told you he was a TROLL!!  LOL I’m not wasting my time arguing with someone who gets ALL of their facts from Google, and YouTube! He is obviously unable to discern a credible source from an incredible source!! It doesn’t appear that our visitor knows how to do elementary research.

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Posted: 02 October 2009 12:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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You morons! Did you drive a way a nice looking blonde?

http://www.myspace.com/k_pre

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We should be more tolerant to deviating explanations of the human cultural and biological history.

GdB

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Posted: 02 October 2009 12:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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GdB - 02 October 2009 12:29 AM

You morons! Did you drive a way a nice looking blonde?

http://www.myspace.com/k_pre

wink

We should be more tolerant to deviating explanations of the human cultural and biological history.

GdB

I can’t understand why anyone would think that looking up something on google or YouTube qualifies as competent research! He has proffered no citations for his claims and instead spent all of his time lambasting us for not embracing the gifts of knowledge he was so kindly bringing to the forum! I hate to think he might be blonde like that nice young lady who tore apart Kirk Cameron’s creationist ramblings. He would give blondes a bad name!

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Posted: 02 October 2009 01:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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I worry that this individual might sincerely think that he’s a critical thinker. I suggest he take a course in logic and reassess his assertions and see if they still stand afterward.

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Posted: 02 October 2009 01:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Kaizen - 02 October 2009 01:15 AM

I worry that this individual might sincerely think that he’s a critical thinker. I suggest he take a course in logic and reassess his assertions and see if they still stand afterward.

He is also in serious need of lessons in History, Biology, astronomy,geology, and mathematics. (I think I covered it all).

Some of the most important lessons I have learned in my adult life are:
1.know what you know
2,More importantly, know what you do NOT know, because this can get you into real trouble
3.know where you can find reliable resources for both what you know and what you do NOT know
4. update your knowledge, things change
5. learn something new every day, you’d be surprised when the knowledge will come in handy.

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